没有完成的翻译

清秋 2017-08-12
2010-07-31 17:48:24

by Adomas

As you already know, the Socionics theory was developed mainly by the Lithuanian researcher Aushra Augustinavichute [1]. The name socionics is derived from the word "society", since Augustinavichute believed that each personality type has a distinct purpose in society, which can be described and explained by socionics [1]. Consequently, it is obvious that Aushra Augustinavichute was mainly interested in different type behaviour, i.e. how they act, in society instead of how they think (and especially why they think so). Interestingly, MBTI theory main goal was to find out how different psychological types representatives think.

作者 Adomas

想必你已经知道,社会人格学的主要创立人是立陶宛的研究人员Aushra Augustinavichute。“社会人个学socionics”字形由“社会society”而来,因为Augustinavichute认为每一个人格类型都由一个不同的社会目的,这可以用社会人格学来解释。相应的,很明显Augustinavichute 主要的兴趣就是不同类型行为,即,人们在社会中的行为方式而不是他们如何思考。有意思的是MBTI理论主...目标就是不同的心理类型代表性的思考方式。

So standard Function definition [1] in socionics is:
1) Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting;
2) Ni understand how things change and evolve over time and throughout history;
3) Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow;
4) Ni perceives the inevitability of future events and notices ties to the past.

因此社会人格学中标准的NI功能定义方式就是:

1) NI主要负责时间过程的把控,理解一定时间段里活动的内容,以及预测。

2) Ni理解一段时间内,或者整个历史过程中事物如何变化和演化。

3) Ni敏锐的意识到当下正在发生的事件,而这些事件并不是能被直接的注意到的,并且将这些事件看做连贯的整体。

4) Ni察觉未来事件的为何必然发生,注意到和过去的联系。

While standard Function definition [1] in socionics is:
1) Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent traits) of a thing, estimating opportunities and possibilities for people and things, and visualising potential outcomes of events;
2) It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom;
3) Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.

而标准的Ne功能的定义如下:

1) Ne负责理解事物的要素,估计人和事物的机遇和可能性,“看到”事件可能的结果

2) Ne负责感知兴趣和厌烦感。

3) Ne会思索事件发生的原因,但会把特殊的事件看做常态的不会变更的。


So in principle Function in socionics stands as idea generation function, while Function is not. But it is logical? No it is not, because Function is introverted while Function is extraverted , thus Ni besides all mentioned things should also generate ideas, while Ne function should not generating ideas, but only take them from environment. Interestingly, in MBTI Ni is responsible for idea generation (just read INTJ [2] type description and you see what I mean). So how we can explain this function "reduction" from socionics viewpoint? First, as was noted before, Aushra Augustinavichute was mainly interested in different type behaviour in society instead of how they think, thus she could fail to fully understand function manifesting nuances. Second, if we assume that is really responsible for idea generation instead of we still see only in reality, because once generate a idea this idea become idea in environment which could be taken by , i.e. if we only observe different psychological types behaviour in society we can't see manifestation as idea generation function. Finally, it is possible that both and are not responsible for idea generation.

因此根据上文,社会人格学中Ne功能就是观念发生器,而NI功能则不是。但这个说法合逻辑么?并不是如此,因为Ni是内向的Ne是外向的,因此Ni除了刚才提到的功能外,应该同样能生成想法,并且Ne功能不应该产生观念,而是从环境中获得观念。有意思的是,MBTI理论中间,Ni负责观念的产生(阅读INTJ的介绍你会明白我说的是什么)。那么,我们如何从社会人格学理论角度来解释NI功能的“缩水”呢?一是,前面说到过Augustinavichute主要关注不同类型社会行为的差异,而不是思考的方式,这导致她没有能够完全的理解Ni功能的微妙显露。二是,如果我们假设是NI而不是Ne负责观念的产生,我们仍然只能在现实中看到Ne,因为一旦Ni产生了一个观念,这个观念就会变成环境里的,之后被Ne接手,换句话说,如果仅仅观察社会中不同类型的行为,我们无法看到Ni表现出的观念产生功能。最后,NI和Ne都具有挂念产生功能都是有可能的。
To sum up, it is very likely that idea generation function is and not . Even if is not responsible for idea generation processes is still not generating ideas, but only take them from environment, because idea generation then depends on unknown processes. If truly responsible for idea generation then once it create idea, this original idea become idea in environment that can be taken by , thus we never see as creating ideas, but we can understand that. Finally if is responsible for this process then it is very likely that without strong it is not possible to catch these ideas (maybe here is a reason why not all psychological types which have as their strong function show to society many ideas).
总结一下,由很大的可能是Ni而不是Ne是负责观念的产生的。即使Ni不负责产生观念,Ne同样不能,它只会从环境中获得观念,因为观念的产生那时依靠的是未知的过程。如果Ni真的能产生观念,那么,它产生了一个原创的观念之后,观念就变成了环境中的并被Ne接管,所以我们无法看到Ni产生了观念但是可以理解这种说法。如果Ni就主导着这一认知过程,没有强大的Ne各种观念也无法抓住(或许着就是为什么许多拥有NI作为强功能的类型并不表现出观念的多产)
Now after we talked about manifestation, we can try to go further and might understand something interesting, i.e. try to compare LII model with INTJ model in MBTI.

现在既然讨论过Ni功能的表现,我们可以试着走的更远,理解些有意思的说法,比如比较社会人格学INTj!(LII model)和MBTI中的INTJ。

(顺便说一句,这里面的奇形怪状的图形标志、随意而来的简写缩写真让人头大。谁弄了一个新体系就有权制作新符号, 如果你愿意,来这里弄一个明白吧! http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Wikisocion_home


Socionics theory states:

MBTI theory states:
社会人格学表述TI NE

MBTI说法 NI TE
As you already know, in socionics LII = id Block [3]. So why in socionics LII = , while in MBTI INTJ = ? Maybe because socionics observing only LII behaviour in society, while MBTI tries to understand how particular type thinks and especially why it thinks the way it thinks. So if we assume that in socionics and not is responsible for idea generation everything might be explained quite simple:
你已经知道社会人格学INTj主导功能是NI和Te(见http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LII)。那么为什么是这样的?或许因为社会人格学只观察INTj的行为表现,而MBTI关注每个类型的思考方式特别是为何以哪种方式思考。那么如果我们假定社会人格学里Ni而不是Ne产生观念,一切都可以很见到的解释通了。
(idea generation) ->
2010-07-31 17:48:24

by Adomas

As you already know, the Socionics theory was developed mainly by the Lithuanian researcher Aushra Augustinavichute [1]. The name socionics is derived from the word "society", since Augustinavichute believed that each personality type has a distinct purpose in society, which can be described and explained by socionics [1]. Consequently, it is obvious that Aushra Augustinavichute was mainly interested in different type behaviour, i.e. how they act, in society instead of how they think (and especially why they think so). Interestingly, MBTI theory main goal was to find out how different psychological types representatives think.

作者 Adomas

想必你已经知道,社会人格学的主要创立人是立陶宛的研究人员Aushra Augustinavichute。“社会人个学socionics”字形由“社会society”而来,因为Augustinavichute认为每一个人格类型都由一个不同的社会目的,这可以用社会人格学来解释。相应的,很明显Augustinavichute 主要的兴趣就是不同类型行为,即,人们在社会中的行为方式而不是他们如何思考。有意思的是MBTI理论主要目标就是不同的心理类型代表性的思考方式。

So standard Function definition [1] in socionics is:
1) Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting;
2) Ni understand how things change and evolve over time and throughout history;
3) Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow;
4) Ni perceives the inevitability of future events and notices ties to the past.

因此社会人格学中标准的NI功能定义方式就是:

1) NI主要负责时间过程的把控,理解一定时间段里活动的内容,以及预测。

2) Ni理解一段时间内,或者整个历史过程中事物如何变化和演化。

3) Ni敏锐的意识到当下正在发生的事件,而这些事件并不是能被直接的注意到的,并且将这些事件看做连贯的整体。

4) Ni察觉未来事件的为何必然发生,注意到和过去的联系。

While standard Function definition [1] in socionics is:
1) Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent traits) of a thing, estimating opportunities and possibilities for people and things, and visualising potential outcomes of events;
2) It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom;
3) Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.

而标准的Ne功能的定义如下:

1) Ne负责理解事物的要素,估计人和事物的机遇和可能性,“看到”事件可能的结果

2) Ne负责感知兴趣和厌烦感。

3) Ne会思索事件发生的原因,但会把特殊的事件看做常态的不会变更的。


So in principle Function in socionics stands as idea generation function, while Function is not. But it is logical? No it is not, because Function is introverted while Function is extraverted , thus Ni besides all mentioned things should also generate ideas, while Ne function should not generating ideas, but only take them from environment. Interestingly, in MBTI Ni is responsible for idea generation (just read INTJ [2] type description and you see what I mean). So how we can explain this function "reduction" from socionics viewpoint? First, as was noted before, Aushra Augustinavichute was mainly interested in different type behaviour in society instead of how they think, thus she could fail to fully understand function manifesting nuances. Second, if we assume that is really responsible for idea generation instead of we still see only in reality, because once generate a idea this idea become idea in environment which could be taken by , i.e. if we only observe different psychological types behaviour in society we can't see manifestation as idea generation function. Finally, it is possible that both and are not responsible for idea generation.

因此根据上文,社会人格学中Ne功能就是观念发生器,而NI功能则不是。但这个说法合逻辑么?并不是如此,因为Ni是内向的Ne是外向的,因此Ni除了刚才提到的功能外,应该同样能生成想法,并且Ne功能不应该产生观念,而是从环境中获得观念。有意思的是,MBTI理论中间,Ni负责观念的产生(阅读INTJ的介绍你会明白我说的是什么)。那么,我们如何从社会人格学理论角度来解释NI功能的“缩水”呢?一是,前面说到过Augustinavichute主要关注不同类型社会行为的差异,而不是思考的方式,这导致她没有能够完全的理解Ni功能的微妙显露。二是,如果我们假设是NI而不是Ne负责观念的产生,我们仍然只能在现实中看到Ne,因为一旦Ni产生了一个观念,这个观念就会变成环境里的,之后被Ne接手,换句话说,如果仅仅观察社会中不同类型的行为,我们无法看到Ni表现出的观念产生功能。最后,NI和Ne都具有挂念产生功能都是有可能的。
To sum up, it is very likely that idea generation function is and not . Even if is not responsible for idea generation processes is still not generating ideas, but only take them from environment, because idea generation then depends on unknown processes. If truly responsible for idea generation then once it create idea, this original idea become idea in environment that can be taken by , thus we never see as creating ideas, but we can understand that. Finally if is responsible for this process then it is very likely that without strong it is not possible to catch these ideas (maybe here is a reason why not all psychological types which have as their strong function show to society many ideas).
总结一下,由很大的可能是Ni而不是Ne是负责观念的产生的。即使Ni不负责产生观念,Ne同样不能,它只会从环境中获得观念,因为观念的产生那时依靠的是未知的过程。如果Ni真的能产生观念,那么,它产生了一个原创的观念之后,观念就变成了环境中的并被Ne接管,所以我们无法看到Ni产生了观念但是可以理解这种说法。如果Ni就主导着这一认知过程,没有强大的Ne各种观念也无法抓住(或许着就是为什么许多拥有NI作为强功能的类型并不表现出观念的多产)
Now after we talked about manifestation, we can try to go further and might understand something interesting, i.e. try to compare LII model with INTJ model in MBTI.

现在既然讨论过Ni功能的表现,我们可以试着走的更远,理解些有意思的说法,比如比较社会人格学INTj!(LII model)和MBTI中的INTJ。

(顺便说一句,这里面的奇形怪状的图形标志、随意而来的简写缩写真让人头大。谁弄了一个新体系就有权制作新符号, 如果你愿意,来这里弄一个明白吧! http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Wikisocion_home


Socionics theory states:

MBTI theory states:
社会人格学表述TI NE

MBTI说法 NI TE
As you already know, in socionics LII = id Block [3]. So why in socionics LII = , while in MBTI INTJ = ? Maybe because socionics observing only LII behaviour in society, while MBTI tries to understand how particular type thinks and especially why it thinks the way it thinks. So if we assume that in socionics and not is responsible for idea generation everything might be explained quite simple:
你已经知道社会人格学INTj主导功能是NI和Te(见http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LII)。那么为什么是这样的?或许因为社会人格学只观察INTj的行为表现,而MBTI关注每个类型的思考方式特别是为何以哪种方式思考。那么如果我们假定社会人格学里Ni而不是Ne产生观念,一切都可以很见到的解释通了。
(idea generation) -> (idea realisation) via and . If it is right then the socionics theory now can only describe how LII act in society ( ), while still can't understand why LII thinks the way he do. In other words, socionics understand that strongest LII functions is , but fails to understand for what purpose these functions work (for LII idea realisation!). Consequently, in extreme situation LII idea can be not possible to apply in reality in principle, but if LII not see problems with logic he can dismiss all opponents' arguments with and continue his idea realisation.

Ni(观念产生)----Te(实现观念),通过Ti和Ne。如果这是对的,社会人格学现在只能解释INTj社会行为,无法解释为什么他们会这样思考。就是说,用社会人格学可以理解INTj最强功能是Ti和Ne,但不能理解这些功能的要实现的目的。(为了INTj观念的实现!)因此,原则上INTj的想法不能应用在实际中,但如果INTj利用TI和Ne功能,无视逻辑中的问题,忽略争议,就能继续实现想法。



Now let's see what situation is with MBTI INTJ? INTJ first functions is , but if we read this type description text [4] accurately we see that this type logic is not , but . So why it is stated that this type second main function is instead ? It is because MBTI INTJ main purpose is idea generation and idea realisation and how INTJ reach its goal, i.e. what his functions ( ) do all hard work, it is mentioned only in the type description text because according MBTI theory it is only a secondary things.

To sum up, what I wrote explains many things about LII in socionics, yet it is still possible that I am not right at all. But if I am right, then now you can fully understand why LII sometimes do everything like in this text [5]:

"What they think themselves is much more important to INTjs. That is why if everybody is certain that bridges have to be built across the river, an INTj may contemplate the possibility of building one along the river. There would probably be a logical reason for that since INTjs view everything through the square prism of logic. And as long as logical rules are obeyed everything is fine."

References:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics
2. http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_per.html
3. http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LII
4. http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html
5. http://www.socionics.com/prof/intj2.htm

Symbols:

- Ni
- Ne
- Ti
- Te
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