《理想国》卷二汉译辨正

灰袍
2015-10-14 看过
 357a 商务版的翻译“该说的都说了”,苏格拉底认为自己可以抽身离开,顾寿观和Bloom提供的翻译 I thought I was freed from argument 巧妙地回应了卷一情节当中苏格拉底被滞留比雷埃夫斯港而被迫进行讨论,这样处理比较好。商务版、Reeve和Shorey这个翻译不好联系起来。

商务版: 我说了那么些话,原以为该说的都说了。
顾寿观版:这样,当我把这些说完了,我以为我已经可以从这个问题上脱身了
王扬版:在说这番话的时候,我还以为我就此摆脱了这个话题
Bloom版:Now, when I had said this, I thought I was freed from argument
Shorey版:When I had said this I supposed that I was done with the subject
Reeve版:When I had said this, I thought I had done with the discussion.

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357a商务版,第一处对格劳孔的性格描述不确,原文主要强调的是他勇敢富有进取心,第二处对色拉叙马霍斯的描绘为“认输”则背离了原文,在上下文语境当中色拉叙马霍斯本身也不见得真的认输,主要是没太多话可讲了,变得温顺或退却,Bloom英译本用的give up 。

商务版:格劳孔素来见义勇为,而又猛烈过人。他对色拉叙马霍斯的那么容易认输颇不以为然
顾寿观版:因为格劳康,他是一个一向对什么事情都持勇敢、进取态度的人,这时候同样,不能接受特拉需马科的退却
王扬版:因为格劳孔面对任何处境都极为勇猛,此刻也同样,不忍忒拉叙马霍斯如此放弃争论
Bloom版:For Glaucon is always most courageous in everything, and so now he didn’t accept Thrasymachus, giving up but said ……
Shorey版:For Glaucon, who is always an intrepid enterprising spirit in everything, would not on this occasion acquiesce in Thrasymachus's abandonment of his case
Reeve版:You see, Glaucon, who is always very courageous in every- thing, refused on this occasion, too, to accept Thrasymachus’ capitulation.

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357a商务版把卷二开篇格劳孔一上来的重要发问给翻译拧巴了,格劳孔这里的发问恐怕也是诸多读者的发问,甚至是柏拉图自己的发问,这里问题的核心并不是问苏格拉底的动机“是假装”还是“真心实意”,原文不是这个意思,格劳孔是问苏格拉底“你情愿我们是看上去被说服、劝服了,还是真正地被说服(正义比不义好)”。其他五个版本的翻译都比较准确。

商务版:苏格拉底,你说无论如何正义总比不正义好,你是真心实意想说服我们呢,还是不过装着要说服我们呢?
顾寿观版:亲爱的苏格拉底,你是宁愿我们看起来像是信服了呢,还是真正地信服,认为正义,在任何情形下,都是比不正义更好的东西?
王扬版:苏格拉底,你打算就这么表明上说服了我们呢,还是真正说服我们,声称,正义在每一个方面都比非正义强?
Bloom版:Socrates, do you want to seem to have persuaded us, or truly to persuade us, that it is in every way better to be just than unjust?
Shorey版:Socrates, is it your desire to seem to have persuaded us or really to persuade us that it is without exception better to be just than unjust?
Reeve版:Do you want to seem to have persuaded us, Socrates, that it is better in every way to be just rather than unjust, or do you want to really persuade us of this?

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 358a商务版有人为的增译,“把这些看透了”并未有原文对应,另一处“恨自己太愚蠢”的“恨”也没有对应的文本,实际上“恨自己太愚蠢”对应部分是苏格拉底的反讽,翻译过来应该是“我似乎是一个不高明或迟钝的学习者”(注意“似乎”seem to 的反讽),苏格拉底实际上在嘲讽那种讲不正义为正义的说辞。比较准确的翻译参考 顾寿观或Bloom版,苏格拉底实际上并不恨自己不聪明(实际上他思考的比智术师要远,何来不聪明?)。

商务版:色拉叙马霍斯正是因为把所有这些看透了,所以才敢脆贬低正义而赞颂不正义的。但是我恨自己太愚蠢,要想学他学不起来
顾寿观版:我知道一般是这样看的,并且刚才它也一直也被特拉需马科当成这样而倍加责难的,而不正义则被倍加赞赏。但是我,看来,是个在理解上很冥顽、迟钝的人(最后不是很准确,“很冥顽、迟钝的学习者”)
王扬版:他们就这么认为,而且刚才它就是这样被忒拉叙马霍斯指责过,相反,非正义得到了他的赞赏。看来,我是个迟钝的学生。
Bloom版:I know this is the popular opinion,” I said, “and a while ago justice, taken as being such, was blamed by Thrasymachus while injustice was praised. But I, as it seems, am a poor learner.”
Shorey版:“I am aware,” said I, “that that is the general opinion and Thrasymachus has for some time been disparaging it as such and praising injustice. But I, it seems, am somewhat slow to learn.”
Reeve版:Thrasymachus has been fault- ing justice and praising injustice on these grounds for some time. But it seems that I am a slow learner.
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358d 第一条翻译问题是“唯一的希望”跟原文无法对应,其实原文的意思是格劳孔认为他最有可能从苏格拉底获得正义因其本身的缘故就好于正义的论证,强调的最有可能性而不是唯一性;第二条是“看着我的样子去赞扬正义”这个翻译让读者会感到有点莫名,没有充分地给出格劳孔的建议,他极力地展现出极端不正义者生活,然后让苏格拉底以此为一个目标对象来进行批评。

商务版:看来唯一的希望只好寄托在你身上了。因此,我要尽力赞美不正义的生活。用这个办法让你看着我的样子去赞扬正义,批评不正义。
顾寿观版:而这,我想,最有可能的莫过于是得之与你了。正因为这样,所以我将要竭力铺张、排场地来赞扬一个不正义的人的生活,通过这样的言语为你作出一个榜样,反过来说明,我也希望听到你能以什么样的方式来鞭笞不正义,而伸张正义
王扬版:我想听到它凭着自己的本质被人颂扬——尤其想听听你说。因而,我将尽力地歌颂非正义的生活说的时候,我会向你指明我是想以什么方式听你指责非正义,歌颂正义。(“尤其想听你说”翻译不确,参考顾寿观版)
Bloom版:and I suppose I would be most likely to learn that from you. That’s the reason why I’ll speak in vehement praise of the unjust life, and in speaking I’ll point out to you how I want to hear you, in your turn, blame injustice and praise justice.
Shorey版:And I think I am most likely to get that from you.For which reason I will lay myself out in praise of the life of injustice, and in so speaking will give you an example of the manner in which I desire to hear from you in turn the dispraise of injustice and the praise of justice.
Reeve版:and I think that I am most likely to learn this from you .That is why I am going to speak at length in praise of the unjust life: by doing so, I will be showing you the way I want to hear you praising justice and denouncing injustice.
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359c “人不为己,天诛地灭嘛!”这一句将格劳孔的表达意思扭曲了,参考其他译本的翻译,这里格劳孔站在不正义的角度维护,说生灵(包括人)有一种本性就是以不正义的方式(do better than)来谋求属己的利益并将其设置为本来的好,但是被法律强迫要求下才屈从了平等。后面的“走到正义这条路”的翻译也不准确,这里其实只是提到了遵循平等的原则。

商务版:人不为己,天诛地灭嘛!人都是在法律的强迫之下,才走到正义这条路上来的
顾寿观版:这贪得好胜是但凡含生之属本来就要当做好的东西去追求的,只是因为法律与公约的强制才迫使他去考察所谓公正平等。
王扬版:一心想占有更多的东西,就是这个,每一个人的本性都在追求它,把它当做好事,然而,这本性却被法律硬押去崇拜平等。(每一个人 不确切,任何一种生灵)
Bloom版:this is what any nature naturally pursues as good, while it is law- which by force perverts it to honor equality.
Shorey版:We should then catch the just man in the very act of resorting to the same conduct as the unjust man because of the self-advantage which every creature by its nature pursues as a good, while by the convention of law it is forcibly diverted to paying honor to 'equality.'
Reeve版:The reason for this is the desire to do better than others.This is what every natural being naturally pursues as good. But by law and force, it is made to deviate from this path and honor equality.
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359d 商务版对格劳孔援引的那个寓言有多处翻译不准确之处,需要一一点明,虽然并不对读者影响格劳孔对正义、不正义的看法有所影响,但对于深入地挖掘柏拉图用格劳孔讲述的寓言会造成很大的障碍。还有一个方面问题是 商务版的分段跟其他版本也有差异,这一段描述在 顾寿观版是分列在两段。
其一,“象吕底亚人古各斯的祖先”漏译 修饰语“传说中”,柏拉图这里谈的是一个传说故事。
其二,“马身上还有小窗”单复数不准确,原文 马身上的小窗是复数,是一排小窗,有人认为这个马的形象类似特洛伊木马。
其三,“戒指上的宝石”这个纯属汉译者捏造出来,原文的戒指上并没有任何宝石,只是牧羊人将戒指的环面向外和向内的不同的转动造成的结果。
其四,“设法谋到一个职位,当上了国王的使臣”,“使臣”的说法太高级了,那个故事里面很浓重的蛮荒色彩,原文这里说这个牧羊人设法成为了一个觐见国王的使者messager,只是传递放羊状况的,“使臣”让我们觉得牧羊人在一个政治机构做了官一样,其实就是一个使者而已。
其五,“王后”的翻译,严格来说并不算错,但是汉译的翻译将柏拉图可能的一种批评立场给翻没了,柏拉图这里原文用的是 国王的妻子,英译本的翻译都使用了the king’s wife而没有用queen,意思也在于表达了柏拉图暗含的立场,也就是 柏拉图可能认为国王的妻子也不咋样,不配做queen。

商务版:我所讲的随心所欲,系指象吕底亚人古各斯的祖先所有的那样一种权力。据说他是一个牧羊人,在当时吕底亚的统治者手下当差。有一天暴风雨之后,接着又地震,在他放羊的地方,地壳裂开了,下有一道深渊。他虽然惊住了,但还是走了下去。故事是这样说的:他在那里面看到许多新奇的玩艺儿,最特别的是一匹空心的铜马,马身上还有小窗户。他偷眼一瞧,只见里面一具尸首,个头比一般人大,除了手上戴着一只金戒指,身上啥也没有。他把金戒指取下来就出来了。这些牧羊人有个规矩,每个月要开一次会,然后把羊群的情况向国王报告。他就戴着金戒指去开会了。他跟大伙儿坐在一起,谁知他碰巧把戒指上的宝石朝自己的手心一转。这一下,别人都看不见他了,都当他已经走了。他自己也莫名其妙,无意之间把宝石朝外一转,别人又看见他了。这以后他一再试验,看自己到底有没有这个隐身的本领。果然百试百灵,只要宝石朝里一转,别人就看不见他。朝外一转,就看得见他。他有了这个把握,就想方设法谋到一个职位,当上了国王的使臣。到了国王身边,他就勾引了王后,跟她同谋,杀掉了国王,夺取了王位

顾寿观版:我所说的这种为所欲为的自由,可以大到这样的程度,就像他们具有传说中吕地圣人巨哥的那个祖先所具有的能力一样。这个人是个牧人,是当时吕地之王的牧奴。一日,风雨暴至,继之以地震,土地折裂,出现了一个大地穴,正在他放牧的所在地前。他一见之下,惊讶不已,就走下地穴。传说他不止看见了很多奇景,并且看见有一匹马,青铜制作,中间是空的,上面有很多小门,他朝门里窥视,见有一具尸体,比常人的体型大,尸体上别无所有,只在受伤有一只金指环,他取下指环,就出了地穴。
不久,正值牧人们举行例行集会的日子——以便按月向国王汇报放牧的情形,届时他也去了,带着他的指环。他在众人中坐下,偶然把指环的环面朝自己转过来面向着手心掌心,这一来,他就在他四周同坐的人的面前消失了,而他们谈论他就像他不在场一样。他非常惊讶,就又去触摸他的指环把它的环面转向朝外,而这么一转,他又出现了。注意到这一点,他就有意检验他的指环,看究竟它有没有这个能力,结果发现,他把指环向里,他就隐没了,而一向外,他就重现了。窥见到这个秘密,他立刻设法使自己跻于使者之列,被派去朝见国王。一到那里,他就诱惑了王后,并在王后的帮助下伏击国王,杀死了他,据他的王位为己有。

王扬版:我所说的那种权力尤其会这样,如果他俩拥有人们传说的、那个吕底亚人[居盖斯]的祖先所有的那般能力。据说,他是个牧羊人,在当时的吕底亚统治者手下当奴仆,某日,起了暴风雨,并且发生了地震,就在他停留之处,地面上出现了一个大裂口。面对此景,他深感惊奇,于是走了下去,除了看到人们传说的其他一些神奇无比的东西外,他还看到一匹青铜马,身子是空的,上面有一些窗眼,透过窗眼窥视,只见里面有一具尸体,样子显然比一般凡人高大,身上别的没有,只有手上的一只金戒指,他取下这东西后,便走了出来。当牧民们按习惯集合在一起,按月向国王汇报有关牧业的情况,他戴着那只戒指来到了会场;当他和其他人坐在一起的时候,他无意中把戒指的正面转向自己,就这么一下,他便在坐在他身边的人们的眼前消失了,而他们只管交谈,似乎他已离去。他感到十分神奇,又摸了一下戒指,把戒指的正面向外扭了一下,他又突然形影如故。此后,他又特意将戒指试弄了一番,看看它是否真有这能力,而结果总是这样,假如他把戒指的正面向内转,他便隐没,向外转,就显形;观察到自己确实拥有这个能力后,他立刻设法当上了向国王汇报的信使之一,接近并且勾引了国王的妻子,又和她合谋杀了国王,夺取了王权。
Bloom版:The license of which I speak would best be realized if they should come into possession of the sort of power that it is said the ancestor of Gyges,- the Lydian, once got. They say he was a shepherd toiling in the service of the man who was then ruling Lydia. There came to pass a great thunderstorm and an earthquake; the earth cracked and a chasm opened at the place where he was pasturing. He saw it, wondered at it, and went down. He saw, along with other quite wonderful things about which they tell tales, a hollow bronze horse. It had windows; peeping in, he saw there was a corpse inside that looked larger than human size. It had nothing on except a gold ring on its hand; he slipped it off and went out. When there was the usual gathering of the shepherds to make the monthly report to the king about the flocks, he too came, wearing the ring. Now, while he was sitting with the others, he chanced to turn the collet of the ring to himself, toward the inside of his hand; when he did this, he became invisible to those sitting by him, and they discussed him as though he were away. He wondered at this, and, fingering the ring again, he twisted the collet toward the outside; when he had twisted it, he became visible. Thinking this over, he tested whether the ring had this power, and that was exactly his result: when he turned the collet inward, he became invisible, when outward, visible. Aware of this, he immediately contrived to be one of the messengers to the king. When he arrived, he committed adultery with the king’s wife and, along with her, set upon the king and killed him And so he took over the rule.
Shorey版:which men say once came to the ancestor of Gyges the Lydian.They relate that he was a shepherd in the service of the ruler at that time of Lydia, and that after a great deluge of rain and an earthquake the ground opened and a chasm appeared in the place where he was pasturing; and they say that he saw and wondered and went down into the chasm; and the story goes that he beheld other marvels there and a hollow bronze horse with little doors, and that he peeped in and saw a corpse within, as it seemed, of more than mortal stature, and that there was nothing else but a gold ring on its hand, which he took off and went forth. And when the shepherds held their customary assembly to make their monthly report to the king about the flocks, he also attended wearing the ring. So as he sat there it chanced that he turned the collet of the ring towards himself, towards the inner part of his hand, and when this took place they say that he became invisible to those who sat by him and they spoke of him as absent and that he was amazed, and again fumbling with the ring turned the collet outwards and so became visible. On noting this he experimented with the ring to see if it possessed this virtue, and he found the result to be that when he turned the collet inwards he became invisible, and when outwards visible; and becoming aware of this, he immediately managed things so that he became one of the messengers who went up to the king, and on coming there he seduced the king's wife and with her aid set upon the king and slew him and possessed his kingdom.
Reeve版:They would especially have the freedom I am talking about if they had the power that the ancestor of Gyges of Lydia is said to have possessed. The story goes that he was a shepherd in the service of the ruler of Lydia.There was a violent thunderstorm, and an earthquake broke open the ground and created a chasm at the place where he was tending his sheep. Seeing this, he was filled with amazement and went down into it. And there, in addition to many other amazing things of which we are told stories, he saw a hollow, bronze horse. There were windowlike openings in it and, peeping in, he saw a corpse, which seemed to be of more than human size, wearing noth- ing but a gold ring on its finger. He took off the ring and came out of the chasm. He wore the ring at the usual monthly meeting of shepherds that reported to the king on the state of the flocks.And as he was sitting among the others, he happened to turn the setting of the ring toward himself, toward the inside of his hand. When he did this, he became invisible to those sitting near him, and they went on talking as if he had gone. He was amazed at this and, fingering the ring, he turned the setting outward again and became visible. So, he experimented with the ring to test whether it indeed had this power—and it did. If he turned the setting inward, he became invisible; if he turned it outward, he became visible again. As soon as he realized this, he arranged to become one of the messengers sent to report to the king. On arriving there, he seduced the king’s wife, attacked the king with her help, killed him, and in this way took over the kingdom
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360c “杀人劫狱”这个成语用的大体不差,也有一些翻译上的偏离,这里的“劫狱”原文没那么明显,就是指的是一种无上的权力,能够将任何人从被囚禁的监狱当中释放,其实也可以将其杀掉,都可以,展现出权力支持下的随心所欲性;还有“象全能的神一样”有漏译,这里的形容强调一个对比,他行事就像一个神在人们当中,其他的版本都翻译出这个对比意义。

商务版:如果他能在市场里不用害怕,要什么就随便拿什么,能随意穿门越户,能随意调戏妇女,能随意杀人劫狱,总之能象全能的神一样,随心所欲行动的话
顾寿观版:尽管眼看着他有能力可以从市场上无惧无畏地取走任何想要的东西,走进人家的家室可以与凡是他愿意的任何人同床,他可以杀死,也可以从牢狱中释放一切他愿意释放的人,以及诸如此类的一切,他,在人中活得就像是个神一样,什么都能做。
王扬版:当他能够在市场上想拿什么就拿什么,不受惩罚,走进别人家里,想和谁睡觉就和谁睡觉,对那些被囚禁的人,他想杀就杀、想放就放,而其他事情他也都能做到,活像人类中的天神。
Bloom版:although he had license to take what he wanted from the market without fear, and to go into houses and have intercourse with whomever he wanted, and to slay or release from bonds whomever he wanted, and to do other things as an equal to a god among humans.
Shorey版:though he might with impunity take what he wished even from the marketplace, and enter into houses and lie with whom he pleased, and slay and loose from bonds whomsoever he would, and in all other things conduct himself among mankind as the equal of a god.
Reeve版:when he could take whatever he wanted from the marketplace with impunity, go into people’s houses and have sex with anyone he wished, kill or release from prison anyone he wished, and do all the other things that would make him like a god among humans.

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360e 商务版“最正义的生活跟最不正义的生活”翻译不确,做一番对照的是“最正义的人和最不正义的人”。

商务版:如果我们把最正义的生活跟最不正义的生活作一番对照,我们就能够对这两种生活作出正确的评价。
顾寿观版:至于说到对于我们所说的这两种人的生活的取舍本身,那么,让我们区别最正义的人和最不正义的人,这是我们唯一能够正确地来进行这个取舍的方法。
王扬版:关于我们讨论的两种生活的区别,如果我们把最有正义的人和最无正义的人分开,我们就能够正确地作出判断;否则,就不能。
Bloom版:As to the judgment itself about the life of these two of whom we are speaking,we’ll be able to make it correctly if we set the most just man and the most unjust in opposition(准确)
Shorey版:But to come now to the decision1 between our two kinds of life, if we separate the most completely just and the most completely unjust man,(准确)
Reeve版:As for decision itself about the life of the two we are discussing, if we contrast the extremes of justice and injustice, we shall be able to make the decision correctly; but if we don’t, we won’t. (翻译模糊)
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361b 商务版对埃斯库罗斯的那句诗歌有漏译(柏拉图的转述是完整的),漏译一个谓语动词“希望是”,对应应为是 wish to

商务版:在这个不正义者的旁边,让我们按照理论树立一个正义者的形象:朴素正直,就象诗人埃斯库洛斯所说的“一个不是看上去好,而是真正好的人”
顾寿观版:既把整个人设置为是这样的一个人,我们的理论要求我们在他的边上摆上那个正义的人,一个简单而高尚的人,用爱斯居尔的话说,一个不愿意显得是,而是真正是好人的人。
王扬版:假设完他是这样一个人后,根据同理,让我们再在他的身旁树立这么一个正义者,一个正直、高贵的人,如埃斯库罗斯所说,一个希望自己并非名义上而是本质上是优秀的人
Bloom版:Now, let us set him down as such, and put beside him in the argument the just man in his turn, a man simple and noble, who, according to Aeschylus,- does not wish to seem, but rather to be, good
Shorey版:and when we have set up an unjust man of this character, our theory must set the just man at his side—a simple and noble man, who, in the phrase of Aeschylus, does not wish to seem but be good
Reeve版: let’s now put the just man next to him in our argument—someone who is simple and noble and who, as Aeschylus says, does not want to be believed to be good, but to be so
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361c-d 商务版用了连续几个中国的成语,一定意义上偏离了柏拉图原文的意思。

商务版:让他不做坏事而有大逆不道之名,这样正义本身才可以受到考验。虽然国人皆曰可杀,他仍正义凛然,鞠躬殉道,死而后已;他甘冒天下之大不韪,坚持正义,终生不渝。这样让正义和不正义各趋极端,我们就好判别两者之中哪一种更幸福了
顾寿观版:没有丝毫不正义的行为他却背起最大的不正义的名声——以便通过恶名和由恶名而来的一切后果的压迫而不屈不挠,一直作为试金石证明他的正义是经得住考验的。不,就让他如此生活,至死无改,终生被人视为不正义,却事实上是个正义的人。这样,两个人都各自达到自己的顶峰和极致,一个是正义的极致,一个是不正义的极致,两个人,任君去选择和去取,哪一个你认为是更幸福的。
王扬版:尽管他不做任何非正义的事,就让他有个最大的非正义的名声,目的是让他的正义得到证实,既非在恶劣的名声下也非在它的后果面前变得软弱。让他不可改变地走下去,直至死亡,一辈子被人看做是个非正义的人,尽管本质上是个有正义的人,这样,当他们两人到达了各自的极点,一个正义者,另一个非正义者,一比就能看出,两人谁更幸福。
Bloom版:Doing no injustice, let him have the greatest reputation for injustice, so that his justice may be put to the test to see if it is softened by bad reputation and its consequences. Let him go unchanged till death, seeming throughout life to be unjust although he is just, so that when each has come to the extreme—the one of justice, the other of injustice—they can be judged as to which of the two is happier
Shorey版:Though doing no wrong he must have the repute of the greatest injustice, so that he may be put to the test as regards justice through not softening because of ill repute and the consequences thereof. But let him hold on his course unchangeable even unto death, seeming all his life to be unjust though being just, that so, both men attaining to the limit, the one of injustice, the other of justice, we may pass judgement which of the two is the happier.
Reeve版:Though he does no injustice, he must have the greatest reputation for it, so that he may be tested with regard to justice by see- ing whether or not he can withstand a bad reputation and its consequences. Let him stay like that, unchanged, until he is dead—just, but all his life believed to be unjust. In this way, both will reach the extremes, the one of justice and the other of injustice, and we will be able to judge which of them is happier.


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361d商务版主要是“”塑造琢磨”这个词翻译地不准确,这里确切的意思是“刮垢磨光,重现生气”,而不是全新的创造、制作。

商务版:老天爷保佑!我亲爱的格劳孔,你花了多大的努力塑造琢磨出这一对人象呀
顾寿观版:“亲爱的格劳康,你对这两人作了多么有力的勾画呵,刮垢磨光,使他们中的每一个都像是一尊塑像一样,供我们来比较和选择。”
王扬版:“好啊,” 我说,“我的格劳孔!你如此彻底地把他们两人清洗干净,犹如一对塑像,好让人去评价。”
Bloom版:my dear Glaucoa how vigorously you polish up each of the two men~just like a statue一for their judgment
Shorey版:“Bless me, my dear Glaucon,” said I, “how strenuously you polish off each of your two men for the competition for the prize as if it were a statue.”
Reeve版:Whew! My dear Glaucon, how vigorously you have scoured each of the men in our competition, just as you would a pair of statues for an art competition.
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362e 商务版漏译格劳孔的哥哥阿德曼托斯说的一个意思,阿是站在完全不同的角度向苏格拉底提出的问题,他是说我要说下跟格劳孔的说法相对立的观点,意思是格劳孔复述了色拉叙马霍斯的观点,认为不正义好,正义不好,而我要说下一部分人虽然赞颂正义批评不正义,但实际上是赞颂正义的后果,而不是赞颂正义本身。同时,商务版漏译了一个逻辑关系,表示目的状语的关系,阿德曼托斯说我再提对立面的观点,用这样的办法就能够把格劳孔所说的意思表达地更清楚。

商务版:我们必须把人家赞扬正义批判不正义的观点统统理出来。据我看,这样才能把格劳孔的意思弄得更清楚
顾寿观版:因为我们还应该来讲一讲另一些人的说法,这说法和他上面所说的相反,都是赞美正义而不赞美不正义的,因为这样,我想,就可以使我所理解的格劳康的愿望更加清楚了。
王扬版:因为我们有必要同样列出对立派的观点,和他刚才所说的相反,即那些赞扬正义、指责非正义的人的观点,这样,我所认为的什么是格劳孔想说的东西就会更清楚。
Bloom版:We must also go through the arguments opposed to those of which he spoke, those that praise justice and blame injustice, so that what Glaucon in my opinion wants will be clearer.
Shorey版:We must set forth the reasoning and the language of the opposite party, of those who commend justice and dispraise injustice, if what I conceive to be Glaucon's meaning is to be made more clear.
Reeve版:You see, in order to clarify what Glaucon has in mind, we should also fully explore the arguments that are opposed to the ones he gave—those that praise justice and disparage injustice.
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363a商务版“不正义者”翻译地有点问题,原文对应的是“被人们认为正义者”(暗含的意思是此人可以不一定实际上是个正义者)【待继续讨论】

商务版:因为只要有了这个好名声,他就可以身居高位,通婚世族,得到刚才格劳孔所讲的一个不正义者从好名声中能获得的种种好处
顾寿观版:为的是,那被人视为正义的人好从他的名声中去得到爵禄名位,得到姻亲婚配,以及格劳康方才历数的,一个人由于正义而从他的好名声中所能得到的一切。
王扬版:因为,做一个被人们认为是有正义的人,官职、婚姻以及格劳孔刚才列举的其他一切都会随这名声而来。
Bloom版:as a result of the opinion, ruling offices and marriages will come to the one who seems to be just, and all the other things that Glaucon a moment ago attributed to the just man as a result of his having a good reputation. And these men tell even more of the things resulting from the opinions.
Shorey版:but the good repute with mankind that accrues from it, the object that they hold before us being that by seeming to be just the man may get from the reputation office and alliances and all the good things that Glaucon just now enumerated as coming to the unjust man from his good name
Reeve版:the inducement they offer is that if we are reputed to be just, then, as a result of our reputation, we will get political offices, good marriages, and all the things that Glaucon recently said that the just man would get as a result of having a good reputation.
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365a 商务版的“国家和私人”对应原文是 城邦和人的复数形式,对应地是“ 一个个的城邦和公民们”。“永世不得超生”过于增强了原意,原文直译过来是“种种的恶在等待着他们”。

商务版:他们用这些书里规定的仪式祭祀祓除,让国家和私人都相信,如果犯下了罪孽,可以用祭享和赛会为生者赎罪……可以用特有的仪式使死者在阴间得到赦免。谁要是轻忽祭祀享神,那就永世不得超生

顾寿观版:他们就是按照这些书来摆供设祭举行仪式的。他们不止努力说服个人,并且说服整个城邦,使人相信,说到底,不义与罪恶是能够用祭品和游神赛会的欢乐来解除和洗净的,不但对于尚还活着的人如此,而且,对于已经过去的私人也是有办法的,后者他们叫做超度术,它能够在彼世解救我们免于很多磨难,而如果不供祭祀,那这个磨难是可怕的。(几处细节翻译地也不准确,“个人”应该是复数,“整个城邦”应该是说的整个希腊城邦世界,“这个磨难”应该是种种磨难)
王扬版:而他们就根据这些书籍举行祭礼,他们不只是使人们私下相信,而且使一个个城邦都公开相信,罪孽的解脱和清除可以通过祭礼和欢庆活动来实现,不仅对仍然活着的人管用,对已经去世的人也管用,他们称这些活动为入教仪式,说它们能把我们从那个世界的种种祸患中解救出来,而对那些没参加过祭礼的人,种种恐怖的事情正在等候他们。
Bloom版:They persuade not only private persons, but cities as well, that through sacrifices and pleasurable games there are, after all, deliverances and purifications from unjust deeds for those still living. And there are also rites for those who are dead. These, which they call initiations,— deliver us from the evils in the other place; while, for those who did not sacrifice, terrible things are waiting
Shorey版:and these books they use in their ritual, and make not only ordinary men but states believe that there really are remissions of sins and purifications for deeds of injustice, by means of sacrifice and pleasant sport for the living, and that there are also special rites for the defunct, which they call functions, that deliver us from evils in that other world, while terrible things await those who have neglected to sacrifice
Reeve版:And they persuade not only private individuals, but whole cities, that there are in fact absolutions and purifications for unjust deeds. For the living, these consist of ritual sacrifices and pleasant games. But there are also special rites for the dead.These initiations, as they call them, free peo- ple from evils hereafter, while terrible things await those who have not performed the rituals.

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365a 商务版主要是漏译了一个暗喻,这个暗喻很可能暗示了他对青年人学习的一种认识,也很可能就是他自己所经历的一种精神状态,青年人天赋好或聪明,会在他们听到的各种议论当中飞来飞去(像小鸟一样),意思是青年人本身缺乏哲人的那种稳定和缺乏主见,很容易被各种演讲和说辞所影响。另一处问题,soul翻译为“灵魂”比“心灵”要好,这是商务版经常出现的问题。

商务版:他们所讲的关于神和人共同关心的善恶的种种宏旨高论,对于听者,特别是对那些比较聪明,能够从道听途说中进行推理的年轻人,对他们的心灵会有什么影响呢?
顾寿观版:那么试想,一个年轻人的灵魂,听了所有这些之后该怎么办呢?这些年轻人,他们的天赋是很好的,他们,如果我们这样说,就像活泼的鸟飞翔穿插在所有他们听到的议论中,他们有能力从他们听到的所有这些中去自求推理。
王扬版:你想想,这些会对年轻人的灵魂产生什么影响,当他们的灵魂听到了这些,因为年轻人思路敏捷,他们仿佛能在别人说过的所有话上飞来飞去……
Bloom版:what do we suppose they do to the souls of the young men who hear them? I mean those who have good natures and have the capacity, as it were, to fly to all the things that are said and gather from them what sort of man one should be and what way one must follow to go through life best.
Shorey版:What, Socrates, do we suppose is the effect of all such sayings about the esteem in which men and gods hold virtue and vice upon the souls that hear them, the souls of young men who are quick-witted and capable of flitting, as it were, from one expression of opinion to another and inferring from them all the character and the path whereby a man would lead the best life?
Reeve版:what effect do we suppose they have on the souls of young people? I mean those who are naturally gifted and able to flit, so to speak, from one of these sayings to another and gather from them an impression of what sort of people they should be, and of how best to travel the road of life
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365b 商务版对品达的那句诗翻译地不好,“安身立命”太笼统,有漏译一个暗喻(商务版很多的翻译都存在对古希腊诗歌的翻译,格律方面很难要求,翻译为散文体至少得意思完整吧),漏译的部分是所谓的阴谋诡计这些东西可以帮助爬上一座高墙(或碉堡、塔楼),以这种高墙来掩护自己。

商务版:这种年轻人多半会用品达的问题来问他们自己:“是用堂堂正义,还是靠阴谋诡计来步步高升,安身立命,度过一生?”
顾寿观版:十有八九在他们心里就像是品达说的那样想:“究竟是凭一条正义的大道,朝着那玄虚的雕楼,还是凭七曲八弯诈骗的蹊径向上攀登,并且就这样在我四周筑护起来安安稳稳地度此一生?”
王扬版:的确,他会向自己提出像品达提过的那种问题:“靠正义,还是靠种种弯曲的骗术攀上高耸的城墙,如此把自己四面保护起来,然后过完人生?”
Bloom版: In all likelihood he would say to himself, after Pindar, will I 'with justice or with crooked deceits scale the higher wall5 where I can fortify myself all around and live out my life?
Shorey版:Such a youth would most likely put to himself the question Pindar asks, “‘Is it by justice or by crooked deceit that I the higher tower shall scale and so live my life out in fenced and guarded security?’”
Reeve版:He would surely ask himself Pindar’s question:“Is it by justice or by crooked tricks that I will scale the higher wall,” and so live out my life surrounded by secure defenses?
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 366c 商务版的翻译“有聪明才智、有财富、有体力、有门第的人”问题主要是让人会理解为是 逻辑合取的关系,而实际上柏拉图这里是一个 逻辑析取关系,也就是“或”or的意思,一个人或者有A的优势 或者有B的优势 或者有C的优势,都会如何如何 的句式。而且,细心的读者会发现《理想国》卷十厄尔神话当中这里伏笔的几种人都有一定的表征,聪明、财富、身体好、门第好 几者的投生选择得到一种对照。

商务版:根据上面说的这些,苏格拉底呀,怎么可能说服一个有聪明才智、有财富、有体力、有门第的人,叫他来尊重正义?这种人对于任何赞扬正义的说法,都只会嘲笑而已
顾寿观版:既然一切如上所述,我的亲爱的苏格拉底,只要一个人具有一点不论智力上还是体力上,或是不论产业上还是门第上的优势和力量,他还会有心来推尊正义,而不是一听到人赞美正义就要报之以嘲弄么?
王扬版:凭以上所说的一切,谁还会下工夫,苏格拉底,自愿地去崇拜正义,如果他在灵魂、身体、金钱、家族方面拥有一定的力量,当他听到人们在弘扬正义,他不会发笑?
Bloom版:After all that has been said, by what device, Socrates, will a man who has some power—of soul, money, body or family—be made willing to honor justice and not laugh when he hears it praised? (soul翻译地不好,心智聪明用mind比较好)
Shorey版:In consequence, then, of all that has been said, what possibility is there, Socrates, that any man who has the power of any resources of mind, money, body, or family should consent to honor justice and not rather laugh when he hears her praised?
Reeve版:So given all that has been said, Socrates, what device could get someone with any power—whether of mind, wealth, body, or family—to be willing to honor justice, and not laugh aloud when he hears it praised?
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 366c 商务版的“生性刚正” “嫉恶如仇”“困学而知”“存善去恶”等几个词都使用了中国的成语,因此在保证理解的流畅和文学性的灵动下,同时也将柏拉图强行拉到了中国语境下,这种处理的问题就让读者很容易会忽略其特殊的哲学思考,因为这些俗语在汉语语境中都有某种记成的意思,“生性刚正”这里关键的是“生性”的“性”,这个字在中国的儒家和佛学当中有极为丰富的解读,这里直译过来柏拉图谈的是 “神圣的天性”英文翻译a divine nature ,这样翻译的好处是让读者会留心注意卷一此处同《理想国》后文尤其是卷五六七部分讲哲人具有的nature 以及卷六末尾金银铜三种人的高贵谎言部分联系。“嫉恶如仇”这个问题是汉语成语强调的是“痛恨”不义,而柏拉图这里的原文表达的意思是“不屑于”行不义,因此柏拉图这里的“不屑”尤其表达出一种高贵品质,其实很容易联想到这种“不屑”在当时的雅典城邦对应的是那些贵族子弟又有高贵天性者(比如柏拉图自己吧)。“困学而知”汉语里面强调的是“困”而后“学”,积极进取,孺子可教,柏拉图这里强调的不是学习者的进取心,而是强调学习者会被知识所影响,后天的教育让其不愿为不正义。
还有一处,这种人“谁头一个掌权”这里的“掌权”也不够确切,对应英文版翻译为come to power 其实呼应上文 一部分人不作恶和批评别人作恶是因为他们没有力量lack power ,所以这里翻译为“获得了力量”比较合适。

商务版:除非那种生性刚正、嫉恶如仇,或者困学而知的人,才懂得为什么要存善去恶。不然就是因为怯懦、老迈或者其他缺点使他反对作恶——因为他实在没有力量作恶。这点再明白也没有了。这种人谁头一个掌权,谁就头一个尽量作恶,唯一的原因就是我跟我的朋友刚开始所讲的

顾寿观版:相反,他知道,除非有人是由于神圣的天性嫌弃和不屑为不义,或由于知识的熏陶而不肯为不义,其他的人,没有一个是出于自愿而为正义的。相反,如果有人谴责不义,那只是由于怯懦无勇,或是由于年老或其他病弱体衰,被迫不能为不义而已。而情形确是如此,是十分明显的事。因为这些人,他们之中谁要是第一个得了力量,那他也就是第一个去行不义的人。

王扬版:但他明白,除了某人靠神一般的天性鄙视非正义,或靠自己掌握的知识躲避它,其他的人中,没有一个是自己想当正义者……事情就是这样,这很明显。要知道,他们这些人中,谁先有能力,谁就会先干非正义之事
Bloom版:he knows that except for someone who from a divine nature cannot stand doing injustice or who has gained knowledge and keeps away from injustice, no one else is willingly just; but because of a lack of courage, or old age, or some other weakness, men blame injustice because they are unable to do it. And that this is so is plain. For the first man of this kind to come to power is the first to do injustice to the best of his ability
Shorey版:but is aware that except a man by inborn divinity of his nature disdains injustice, or, having won to knowledge, refrains from it, no one else is willingly just, but that it is from lack of manly spirit or from old age or some other weakness that men dispraise injustice, lacking the power to practise it. The fact is patent. For no sooner does such one come into the power than he works injustice to the extent of his ability
Reeve版:After all, he knows that apart from someone of godlike character who is disgusted by doing injustice, or someone who has gained knowledge and avoids injustice for that reason, no one is just willingly.Through cowardice or old age or some other weakness, people do indeed object to injustice. But it is obvious that they do so only because they lack the power to do injustice. For the first of them to gain that power is the first to do as much injustice as he can

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367a 商务版漏译一个形容词,“颠倒过来”有个“粗鲁地”的修饰。

商务版:关于正义和不正义,色拉叙马霍斯和其他的人毫无疑问是会说这些话的,甚至还要过头一点呢!这种说法,在我看来,其实是把正义和不正义的真实价值颠倒过来了
顾寿观版:所有这些,并且显然还不止这些,亲爱的苏格拉底,就是特拉需马科以及很可能还有其他人关于正义和不正义所可能持有的说法了,他们竭力,至少在我看来,粗暴地颠倒两者的力量。
王扬版:正是这些,苏格拉底,也许比这些更多,忒拉叙马霍斯或其他什么人能说出口来,论述什么是正义和非正义,粗鲁地把这两者的本能颠倒过来,至少我认为如此
Bloom版:This, Socrates, and perhaps yet more than this, would Thrasymachus and possibly someone else say about justice and injustice, vulgarly turning their powers upside down, in my opinion at least
Shorey版:This, Socrates, and perhaps even more than this, Thrasymachus and haply another might say in pleas for and against justice and injustice, inverting their true potencies, as I believe, grossly
Reeve版:That, Socrates, and probably other things in addition, are what Thrasy- machus (or possibly someone else) might say in discussing justice and injustice—crudely inverting their power, in my view.
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 368a 商务版翻译“格劳孔的好朋友”太笼统,这里并不是普通的friend,在英译本里面用的对应单词是lover,对应的是 格劳孔的爱慕者,而且从lover这个形容看很可能与格劳孔有男性性爱的关系,很多注疏都猜测这里的lover就是克里提亚(雅典三十僭主的首领)。

商务版:格劳孔的好朋友曾经写过一首诗,歌颂你们在麦加拉战役中的赫赫战功
顾寿观版:无怪乎格劳康的爱慕者在赞誉你们在麦加利一役中的勇名时
王扬版:格劳孔的爱慕者在他那首挽歌的开头表彰过你们,因为你们在迈加拉战役中出了名
Bloom版:Glaucon’ lover made to his poem about your distinguishing yourselves in the battle at Megara
Shorey版:in the beginning of the elegy which the admirer of Glaucon wrote when you distinguished yourselves in the battle of Megara (admirer 不确,lover合适)
Reeve版:Glaucon’s lover was not wrong to begin the elegy he wrote, when you distinguished yourselves at the battle of Megara
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 368c 商务版翻译“这对我来说,恐怕是一种罪恶,是奇耻大辱”不确,这里首先没有任何耻辱和荣誉的问题,苏格拉底在对话中作为哲人——爱智慧者,是不会对荣誉太过介意(除非作为城邦建造者),原文也没有对应字样。“是一种罪恶”确切地说是一种“不虔敬”英文翻译用的impious ,并没有用sin活evil字样。

商务版:如果正义遭人诽谤,而我一息尚存有口能辩,却袖手旁观不上来帮助,这对我来说,恐怕是一种罪恶,是奇耻大辱。看起来,我挺身而起保卫正义才是上策
顾寿观版:而另一方面,我也不知道我怎么能够不帮助正义;因为我怕着该要成了一种实实在在的渎神行为了,如果,当我一息尚存,还有气力能够说话的时候,有人当着我的面诟骂正义,而我听之任之,不敢则声,也不去相助。因此,最好还是尽我之力所及来帮助救援它。
王扬版:我刚才想过,我对忒拉叙马霍斯说的那些话已证明了正义比非正义优越,可你们并不接受我的观点——另一方面,我又不能不给点帮助,因为我怕这是一种不虔敬的行为,当正义受到污蔑时,自己站在一旁听而任之,不给予任何帮助,尽管自己还在呼吸、还有能力说话。
Bloom版:For I’m afraid it might be impious to be here when justice is being spoken badly of and give up and not bring help while I am still breathing and able to make a sound. So the best thing is to succour her as I am able
Shorey版: it be actually impious to stand idly by when justice is reviled and be faint-hearted and not defend her so long as one has breath and can utter his voice. The best thing, then, is to aid her as best I can
Reeve版:For I fear that it may even be impious to have breath in one’s body and the ability to speak, and yet stand idly by and not defend justice when it is being prosecuted.The best thing, then, is to give justice any assistance I can.
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368e 商务版将苏格拉底原来反问的语气变成了肯定的语气,“难道不是存在一种是个人的正义和一种是城邦的正义么”。

商务版:我来告诉你:我想我们可以说,有个人的正义,也有整个城邦的正义
顾寿观版:我且慢慢来对你说。正义,是不是,我们说,有存在于一个单一的个人之中的,又也有存在于一个整体的城邦之中的?(反问语气)
王扬版:“我这就告诉你,” 我说,“正义,我们说,一种属于个人,另一种属于整个城邦,不是吗?”(王扬版翻译的反问语气也比较牵强)
Bloom版:I’11 tell you,1 said. "There is, we say, justice of one man; and there is, surely, justice of a whole city too? (反问语气)
Shorey版: “I will tell you,” I said: “there is a justice of one man, we say, and, I suppose, also of an entire city.”(跟商务版问题相同)
Reeve版:I will tell you. We say, don’t we, that there is a justice that belongs to a single man, and also one that belongs to a whole city? (反问语气)
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369d 商务版翻译的问题两个方面,第一是漏译“种种需要”,王扬版也没能翻译出“种种需要”, 种种需要 翻译出来的好处是让读者认识到城邦有很多类需要;第二是“最重要的”弱化了柏拉图表达的语气,原文柏拉图用了两个词来强调,第一需要和最重大的需要。此段 汉译顾寿观版翻译推荐参考。

商务版:首先,最重要的是粮食,有了它才能生存
顾寿观版:可是,要说到我们种种需要中的第一和最重要的需要,那么它是我们的生命和生活所赖的食物
王扬版:不用说,最先、最大的需要就是为自己提供食物,以此维持生命(没有翻译出“种种需要”)
Bloom版:Well, now, the first and greatest of needs is the provision of food for existing and living
Shorey版:Now the first and chief of our needs is the provision of food for existence and life.
Reeve版:Now, the first and greatest of our needs is to provide food in order to sustain existence and life.
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371a 商务版没问题,顾寿观版漏译“我们这个城邦”这个主语,不过也不影响什么理解。

商务版: 所以我们的城邦需要更多的农夫和更多其他的技工了
顾寿观版:“那就还该有更多的农人,更多的其他手艺工匠。”(漏译“我们这个城邦”)
王扬版:因此,我们这个城邦就需要更多的农夫和其他手工业者
Bloom版:So our city needs more farmers and other craftsmen
Shorey版:So our city will require more farmers and other craftsmen
Reeve版:So we will need more farmers and other craftsmen in our city. (we不准,our city)
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371b 汉语当中的“海外贸易”其实并不是海上航行和水手的事情,至少很多人会理解为跟外国人做交易的意思,但是柏拉图这里描述的意思其实是城邦需要有精通航海技艺的人,比如船长、水手等人物。

商务版:如果这个生意要到海外进行,那就还得需要另外许多懂得海外贸易的人
顾寿观版:可是如果贸易是在海上进行的,那我们就另外还需要有那么一群人,他们是专门通晓航海技艺的?(顾版将其翻译为反问语气,与其他版本不同)
王扬版:再说,如果商人的生意发展到了海上,我们将需要另有一批数量很多、精通海上事务的人
Bloom版:And if the commerce is carried on by sea, there will also be need of throngs of other men who know the business of the sea
Shorey版: we shall need quite a number of others who are expert in maritime business.
Reeve版:And if the trade is carried on by sea, we will need a great many others who have expert knowledge of the business of the sea.
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372a-b 商务版在段末的反问语气商务版没有翻译出来,还有一些的细节和时态翻译不清楚。

商务版:首先,让我们考虑一下在作好上面种种安排以后,人们的生活方式将会是什么样子。他们不要烧饭,酿酒,缝衣,制鞋吗?他们还要造屋,一般说,夏天干活赤膊光脚,冬天穿很多衣服,着很厚的鞋子。他们用大麦片,小麦粉当粮食,煮粥,做成糕点,烙成薄饼,放在苇叶或者干净的叶子上。他们斜躺在铺着紫杉和桃金娘叶子的小床上,跟儿女们欢宴畅饮,头戴花冠,高唱颂神的赞美诗。满门团聚,其乐融融,一家数口儿女不多,免受贫困与战争
顾寿观版:首先,我们需要来看一看,我们在上面所集结的这些人,他们将以怎样的方式生活呢?是不是将是这样:他们制造面包,酿造酒类,制作衣服和鞋子,建造房屋;在暑天,他们大半是裸身赤足劳动的,到了冬天就身上穿上衣服,脚上穿起鞋子,足以保温,足以御寒;作为他们藉以营养滋生的食物,他们从大麦里磨制大麦面粉,从小麦中磨制小麦面粉,该焙烤的焙烤,该揉制的揉制,厚实地道的用大麦粉揉制出来的面包和用小麦粉焙烤出来的面包他们放置在苇草垫上或是洁净的叶片上,他们斜倚在用葡萄藤和桃金娘垫起的坐褥上,他们,和他们的孩子们一起,快乐的用餐,轮番地饮酒,头上戴着花环,唱着颂神的赞歌,他们彼此相得,和合欢畅;他们不超出他们的财力物力的限度生育子女,以求免于贫乏和战争的忧虑。他们是这样生活的么?
王扬版:首先,让我们探讨一下,这些人如此为自己准备好了一切,人将过上什么样的生活。难道他们会生产别的,不生产谷物、葡萄酒、衣服、鞋子?他们盖房子,夏天,大部分时间可以光着身子、赤着脚干活,到了冬天,他们有足够的衣服穿,有鞋穿;他们将为自己准备食物,把大麦压成麦片,把小麦磨成面粉,前者用水煮,后者捏成面团,之后,把正宗的糕点和面包放在麦秆和干净的树叶上,搁在一旁,自己斜躺在用紫杉和桃金娘花枝编织的草垫上,和孩子们一起痛快地吃了起来,喝着葡萄酒,头戴花冠,并唱起弘扬天神的歌曲,他们相互进行甜蜜的交融,但不会不顾经济能力去生育孩子,因为他们害怕贫困或战争?
Bloom版:It really must be considered and we mustn’t back away. First,let’s consider what manner of life men so provided for will lead. Won’t they make bread,wine, clothing, and shoes? And, when they have built houses, they will work in the summer, for the most part naked and without shoes, and in the winter adequately clothed and shod. For food they will prepare barley meal and wheat flour; they will cook it and knead it. Setting out noble loaves of barley and wheat on some reeds or clean leaves, they will stretch out on rushes strewn with yew and myrtle and feast themselves and their children. Afterwards they will drink wine and, crowned with wreathes, sing of the gods. So they will have sweet intercourse with one another, and not produce children beyond their means, keeping an eye out against poverty or war
Shorey版:we must examine it and not hold back. First of all, then, let us consider what will be the manner of life of men thus provided. Will they not make bread and wine and garments and shoes? And they will build themselves houses and carry on their work in summer for the most part unclad and unshod and in winter clothed and shod sufficiently? And for their nourishment they will provide meal from their barley and flour from their wheat, and kneading and cooking these they will serve noble cakes and loaves on some arrangement of reeds or clean leaves, and, reclined on rustic beds strewn with bryony and myrtle, they will feast with their children, drinking of their wine thereto, garlanded and singing hymns to the gods in pleasant fellowship, not begetting offspring beyond their means
Reeve版:We must look into it and not back off. First, then, let’s see what sort of life people will lead who have been provided for in this way. They will make food, wine, clothes, and shoes, won’t they? And they will build themselves houses. In the summer, they will mostly work naked and barefoot, but in the winter they will wear adequate clothing and shoes. For nourishment, they will provide themselves with barley meal and wheat flour, which they will knead and bake into noble cakes and loaves and serve up on a reed or on clean leaves.They will recline on couches strewn with yew and myrtles and feast with their children, drink their wine, and, crowned with wreaths, hymn the gods.They will enjoy having sex with one another, but they will produce no more children than their resources allow, lest they fall into either poverty or war lest they fall into poverty or war?

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375a 商务版“养得好的卫士”翻译不确切,这里对应是一个品性好的少年,将少年和狗在护卫上进行比较具有相似性,而且二者的希腊语发音有相似之处,虽然这样的少年做了护卫工作后就是“卫士”。

商务版:你觉得一条养得好的警犬和一个养得好的卫士,保卫工作来说,两者的天赋才能有什么区别吗?
顾寿观版:“那么,” 我说,“你认为一只年青的良种狗和一个品性纯良的少年,就担任护卫者这一工作而说,他们的天性有什么差异么?”
王扬版:“那么,你认为,” 我说,“一条品种优良的狗在看守一事上和一个出生高贵的年轻人有什么区别?”
Bloom版:“Do you suppose,,’ I said,“that for guarding there is any difference between the nature of a noble puppy and that of a well-born young man?”
Shorey版: “Do you think,” said I, “that there is any difference between the nature of a well-bred hound for this watch-dog's work and of a well-born lad?”
Reeve版:Do you think that there is any difference, when it comes to the job of guarding, between the nature of a noble hound and that of a well-bred youth?
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375b11 老问题,“天啊!”是“By Zeus”

商务版:天啊!的确不容易避免
顾寿观版:“这可是,” 他说,“凭宙斯的名,不太容易”
王扬版:“宙斯在上,” 他说,“那可不容易”
Bloom版:“By Zeus,” he said,“it won’t be easy.”
Shorey版:“Not easily, by Zeus,” said he.
Reeve版:By Zeus, it won’t be easy for them.
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378b 商务版以及英译本字面上的“最伟大的头号天神”的翻译比较模糊,很容易让我们认为指的是单数的天神——宙斯,但是这里其实是复数意义,儿子模仿的是好几个天神们相似的做法,所谓“头号”指的是比较早的一批天神,“最伟大”应该指的是力量强大。

商务版:对一个大逆不道,甚至想尽方法来严惩犯了错误的父亲的人也不要大惊小怪,因为他不过是仿效了最伟大的头号天神的做法而已。
天哪!我个人认为这种事情是不应该讲的

顾寿观版:“而是相反,他正在做的是一件和那诸神之中头号的、最显赫的神灵所做的同一的事”
“不”,他说,“凭宙斯大神的名,我同样也不认为这是一些适宜于宣传的说法。”

王扬版:他只不过是在惩罚违法乱纪的父亲,用了这样或那样的办法,然而,他做得和最古老、最伟大的天神们完全一样
“不,宙斯在上,” 他说,“我本人认为,把这种故事讲出去不合适。”

Bloom版:or that in punishing the unjust deeds of his father in every way, he would do nothing to be wondered at, but would be doing only what the first and the greatest of the gods did.”
“No, by Zeus,’ he said. “To say this doesn’t seem fitting to me either.”

Shorey版:that in doing the utmost wrong he would do nothing to surprise anybody, nor again in punishing his father's1 wrong-doings to the limit, but would only be following the example of the first and greatest of the gods.” “No, by heaven,” said he,“I do not myself think that they are fit to be told.”(by heaven 应为 by Zeus)

Reeve版:or that if he were to inflict every sort of punishment on an unjust father, he would only be doing the same as the first and greatest of the gods.
No, by Zeus, I do not think myself that these stories are fit to be told.
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381c 商务版这里有一处严重的失误,简直就是瞎翻译,“神和人都尽善尽美”,这里的“人”肯定是不尽善尽美的,没有哪个希腊人持有这种不虔敬的观点。这里准确的翻译指的是 每一个天神都美且善(根本没说人)。另一处是句末的“既定形式”,这里的“形式”需要讨论,考虑到柏拉图的理念论(形式论),但这里希腊文用的对应单词不是eidos,顾寿观本专门加了括号注明,翻译的时候也翻译为“貌相”而非“形式”。

商务版:那么,一个神想要改变他自己,看来是连这样一种愿望也不可能有的了。看来还是:神和人都尽善尽美,永远停留在自己单一的既定形式之中
顾寿观版:“即使是神也不可能会想要改变他自己的;而是相反,他们中的每一位既都是极致地完美和完善的,他也就永远单一地保持在他自己的貌相中”
王扬版:“因此,” 我说,“天神不可能愿意改变自己,然而,可以想象,因为每一位天神在最大程度上已是最优秀、最高尚,他永远单一地处在于自己的原形中。”
Bloom版:“Then it’s impossible,” I said,“for a god to want to alter himself,but since,as it seems, each of them is as fair and as good as possible, he remains forever simply in his own shape.
Shorey版:“It is impossible then,” said I, “even for a god to wish to alter himself, but, as it appears, each of them being the fairest and best possible abides for ever simply in his own form.”
Reeve版:It is also impossible, then, for a god to want to alter himself. On the contrary, since each god is, it seems, as beautiful and as good as possible, he must always unqualifiedly retain his own form. (Reeve版形容 神的美和善的时候用了 seem,跟其他版有差异)
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381d “尼姑”应为女祭司,古希腊没有尼姑。

商务版:也不许任何人讲关于普罗图斯和塞蒂斯的谎话,也不许在任何悲剧和诗篇里,把赫拉带来,扮作尼姑
顾寿观版:别让他如此编造有关普罗忒乌斯和忒提斯的谎言,别让他改变赫拉的面目,把她引入悲剧或其他诗作中,如同一个女祭司
王扬版:别让他如此编造有关普罗特乌斯和忒提斯的谎言,别让他改变赫拉的面目,把她引入悲剧或其他诗作中,如同一个女祭司
Bloom版:and let none tell lies about Proteus and Thetis— or bring on an altered Hera, either in tragedies or the other kinds of poetry, as a priestess
Shorey版:Nor must anyone tell falsehoods about Proteus and Thetis, nor in any tragedy or in other poems bring in Hera disguised as a priestess
Reeve版:Nor must they tell lies about Proteus and Thetis, or present Hera, in their tragedies or other poems, disguised as a priestess ……
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382e 商务版漏译一个状语“不管对方醒着或是在梦中”,这个状语修饰 神给世人传送信号。

商务版:因此,神在言行方面都是单一的、真实的,他是不会改变自己,也不会白日送兆,夜间入梦,玩这些把戏来欺骗世人的
顾寿观版:“那么,天神的确本质单一、言行真实;他既不改变自己,也不欺骗别人,既不通过假象,也不通过语言,也不通过递送信号,不管对方醒着或是在做梦”
王扬版:那么,天神的确本质单一、言行真实;他既不改变自己,也不欺骗别人,既不通过假象,也不通过语言,也不通过传送信号,不管对方醒着或是在做梦。
Bloom版:“Then the god is altogether simple and true in deed and speech and he doesn’t himself change or deceive others by illusions, speeches, or the sending of signs either in waking or dreaming.”
Shorey版:Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself nor deceives others by visions or words or the sending of signs in waking or in dreams.(God 大写不合适,英文的God特指上帝)
Reeve版:A god, then, is altogether simple, true in both word and deed. He does not change himself or deceive others by means of images, by words, or by sending signs, whether they are awake or dreaming.
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