商务版《理想国》第八卷汉译辨正

灰袍
2015-05-21 看过

1. 543a “他们的王则必须是那些被证明文武双全的最优秀人物。” “王”表达信息有限,汉语中“王”一般只是一人,原希腊文则是复数、宾格,英译本无论是Bloom还是Shorey都翻译为Kings,这是其一。其二在于“文武双全”,原文的“文”指的是搞哲学,柏拉图谈的哲人跟中国文化传统当中的文人几乎是两码事,“武”指的是对战争方面有所胜任。 顾寿观版:“作为统治者或城邦之王的,也都是由他们之中不论是在哲学还是在有关战争的事务上,那些都已经成长为最优秀的人所充当的” (单复数不明显,“文武双全”的问题有纠正) Bloom版:and their kings must be those among them who are proved best in philosophy and with respect to war. Shorey版:the rulers or kings over them are to be those who have approved themselves the best in both war and philosophy (rulers或kings复数,两方面用war和philosophy) 2. 543b “除了上述营房而外,你还记得吗,我们同意过他们还应该有些什么东西?” ,翻译的句式和语气问题,原文是一个陈述句,陈述句里面有个关于问题的宾语从句,同时“什么东西”略掉了“财产”,柏拉图原文用了财产的复数。 顾寿观版:而除了这样的住所之外,关于他们的财产和收入,如果你还记得的话,我们也已经有过一致的意见,他们所将享有的应该是些什么样的财产和收入。(多添“收入”) Bloom版:And ,in addition to such houses , as to possessions ,if you remember ,we presumably came to an agreement about what sort they are to have .(翻译准确) Shorey版:and in addition to such habitations we agreed ,if you remember ,what should be the nature of their possessions. 3. 543c”请告诉我,我们是从哪里起离开本题的?让我们还是回到本题去,言归正传吧“,“离开本题”是意译,本意是旅程道路分离之类意思,英译本Bloom译作detour,能够将道路的暗示联系起来。另外,原文有一个逻辑关联关系,以目的从句的形式表达,回忆从哪里被打叉了,然后为的是回到原来的讨论轨道上,商务版没翻译出来。 “请告诉我”,对应的是一个导入语“让我们来吧”,“请告诉我”的用词也不是很确切。 顾寿观版:“让我们来回顾一下,我们是从什么地方转了弯而走到现在这个地方来的,以便我们可以回过头去再继续我们原来的道路” (“以便”将逻辑关系翻译了出来) Bloom版:let's recall where we took the detour that brought us here so that we can go back to the same way. Shorey版:let us recall the point at which we entered on the digression that has brought us here, so that we may proceed on our way again by the same path (so that将关联关系翻译了出来) 4. 543c “假定那时你已把国家描写完毕,并进而主张,你所描述的那种”,这里的“假定”是商务版的认为添加,并不符合格劳孔谈的意思,这里格劳孔已经认为苏格拉底的确已经把最好城邦的事情描述完毕,参考第六卷结尾格劳孔的回答。 顾寿观版:“那时候,差不多就像现在这样,把关于城邦的事既已叙述完了,就正在着力地继续谈下去” Bloom版:You were presenting your arguments pretty much as you are doing now ,as though you had completed your description of what concerns the city. Shorey版:for at that time, almost exactly as now, on the supposition that you had finished the description of the city, you were going on to say that you assumed such a city (跟商务版一样,用了supposition 假设的语气,不确) 5. 544a“对哪些是最善的人,哪些是最恶的人”,善恶的翻译不够好,很容易让人在道德善恶的意义上来思考,这里的好坏问题是第一位的,自然好不等同于道德善,二者之间的割裂和矛盾在第一卷苏格拉底和色拉叙马霍斯的争论已经可见端倪,后来第二卷格劳孔又将其充分的阐述了出来,英文的善、好同样用的是一个单词good,所以也无法直接读出来,需要读者体会。 顾寿观版:认定谁是那最好和谁是那最坏的人只会…… Bloom版:when we have seen them all and agreed which man is best and which worst Shorey版:come to an agreement about the best and the worst man 6. 544b “那么,让我们像摔跤一样,再来一个回合吧”,这里的“再来一个回合”翻译不确切,王扬老师对照希腊文给我们解释为“如同摔跤手,你让我抓住同一个把位”,Bloom和Shorey版的英译本准确。另外,注意此句是格劳孔发言,格劳孔主动要求苏格拉底给予教导,继续讨论前文提到的四种政体。 顾寿观版:那么,就像摔跤手一样,请你且再摆出那同一的姿势 (不确切) Bloom版:Well,then ,like a wrestler , give me the same hold again Shorey版:A second time then, as in a wrestling-match, offer me the same hold (没有表达出“再一次”) 7. 544c“第四种,乃是与前述所有这三种都不同的高贵的僭主政制,是城邦的最后的祸害”,这里“城邦的最后的祸害”,还有“高贵的僭主政制”需要解释,“高贵的”可能是苏格拉底一直的讽刺口吻,而“最后的祸害”翻译为城邦政治最大的弊端比较好,这里强调的是城邦弊端的严重程度,商务版的“最后的祸害”疑似从Shorey版转译,Bloom的英译本翻译准确。 顾寿观版:再则,是那出身高贵的,并且凌驾于这一切之上的僭主政体,它就是那第四种,并且也是那最极端的一种城邦的疾病了 Bloom版:and then the noble tyranny at last ,excelling all of these ,the fourth and extreme illness of a city. Shorey版:and then the noble tyranny surpassing them all, the fourth and final malady of a state (final malady不确切,城邦用state翻译不准确) 8. 544d“不是的,政治制度是从城邦公民的习惯里产生出来的;习惯的倾向决定其它一切的方向”,这里商务版有漏译,语气也被变更为陈述句原文是反问句,漏译了一个很形象的比喻(这个比喻在后文550e和556e会继续讨论),人的习惯和习俗对政治的影响好比天平称重那般(一边加物会打破平衡),顾寿观中译本和Bloom的英译本,比较确切。另外“城邦公民的习惯”原希腊文对应单词是复数,意为各式各样的习惯,Bloom和Shorey的英译本都用了复数,中文这里最好做下强调。 顾寿观版:难道你认为一切政体都是从木头、树桩子或是石块里产生出来,而并不是,它们是从城邦居民们的习性中产生出来的,后者就像秤盘上的重量一样倾向这一边或那一边,并且把其他一切都拖拽过去? Bloom版:Or do you suppose that regimes arise "from an oak or rocks" and not from the dispositions of the men in the cities ,tipping the scale as it were draw the rest along with them?(dispositions复数) Shorey版:Or do you suppose that constitutions spring from the proverbial oak or rock and not from the characters of the citizens,which, as it were, by their momentum and weight in the scales draw other things after them?(characters 复数,不过这个单词并不准确) 9. 545d “政治制度的变动全都是由领导阶层的不和而起的。如果他们团结一致,哪怕只有很少的一致,政治制度变动也是不可能的”,这里是一处明显的错译,同时将原文的反问语气给改成了陈述语气。 “很少的”修饰语是“领导阶层”“统治者”而不是 “一致”,苏格拉底这句话的意思是哪怕统治阶层是很少的一部分人,但是他们倘若意见一致,那么政治制度也会很稳固不会发生变动——当然,至于真实的政体是否如苏格拉底所言那样就是另一回事。 还有一种解读,“很少的”可能也是指的是城邦的人数少,修饰的是城邦整体构成的人数。 城邦灭亡只是因为统治者内部不和的讨论,亚里士多德跟柏拉图观点不同,众所周知亚里士多德对政体的考察是从历史和经验角度出发,不同于柏拉图这里以人的灵魂变化规律而讨论的出发点,参考,亚里士多德对柏拉图的这个观点不予以讨论,以沉默表示反对。参考 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atex t%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D8%3Asection%3D545d 顾寿观版:一切政体的变化都是出于那个掌握着政权的集团本身,如果在这个集团本身之中产生了分歧和内讧的话;而如果内部的意见是一致的,那就不论它只是一个很小的集团,它也是不可动摇的?(翻译确切) Bloom版:Or is it simply the case that change in every regime comes from that part of it which holds the ruling offices—when faction arises in it—when it is of one mind, it cannot be moved,be it composed of ever so few? (准确) Shorey版:Or is this the simple and unvarying rule, that in every form of government revolution takes its start from the ruling class itself, when dissension arises in that, but so long as it is at one with itself, however small it be, innovation is impossible? 10. 545d “我们要不要想象这些文艺之神像逗弄小孩子一样地,用悲剧的崇高格调一本正经地对我们说话呢?” ,翻译的问题王扬在《<理想国>汉译辨正》提及此处“我们要不要”的语气,原文并非问询语气要不要,而是近似祈使语气,“让我们xxx” 。另外义理方面,这里本身的文意倒是很拧巴,既然是悲剧的格调怎么就跟逗弄小孩子联系到一块? 顾寿观版:并且,让我们这样说:这些文艺之神们,她们,就像对待孩子一样,调侃,逗弄我们,而在一种貌似庄严、认真的语言中,以一种悲剧式的气氛,说一些昂扬、高亢的话? Bloom版: shall we say that they speak to us with high tragic talk, as though they were speaking seriously ,playing and jesting with us like children?(同商务版问题相同) Shorey版:Shall we, like Homer ,invoke the Muses to tell “how faction first upon them,” and say that these goddesses playing with us and teasing us as if we were children address us in lofty ,mock-serious tragic style? 11. 546b “但他们也不能凭感官观察和理性思考永远准确无误地为你们的种族选定生育的大好时节”。 一是存在漏译,“大好时节”只说了一方面,是兴盛期和衰竭期; 二是“凭感官观察和理性思考”这句,柏拉图暗示统治者的理性思考往往会被混入感官观察,所以就不可能总是计算正确,并以此所以不能够把握生育的兴盛期和衰竭期,商务版将柏拉图的这个暗示给翻译没了; 三是“永远准确无误”原文没有相应的文字,乃中译本添加。 顾寿观版:而你们的那些护卫者们,如果他们在对于后者一无知晓的情况下,违反恰当时刻,引导青年男女的交合(兴盛期和枯竭期 没有翻译出来) Bloom版:Although they are wise ,the man you educated as leader of the city will nonetheless fail to hit on the prosperous birth and barrenness of your kind with calculation aided by sensation (the prosperous和 barrenness 未漏译,以aid表明理性思考和感官判断的关系乃是从属关系) Shorey版:but the laws of prosperous birth or infertility for your race, the men you have bred to be your rulers will not for all their wisdom ascertain by reasoning combined with sensation 12. 546d“由于他们实际上算不上优秀,因此,当他们执掌了父辈的权力成为护卫者时,他们便开始蔑视我们这些人 ,先是轻视音乐教育然后轻视体育锻炼”,两个问题,第一个问题是“算不上优秀”的翻译不够确切,原意是不能干、不中用,第二个问题是王扬指出的“蔑视我们这些人”,这一段是苏格拉底在以缪斯女神的口吻说话,“我们这些人”要么指包括缪斯女神在内,要么包括苏格拉底等人在内,感觉别扭不过其他版本都译作“我们”。 顾寿观版:但是,因为是无价值、不足取的,他们一经就位,接替了他们的父辈的权力之后,作为护卫者,首先,就会忽视我们,以理所不该的那样淡漠、欠缺的态度来看待音乐文化事业。 Bloom版:since they are unworthy, when they ,in turn ,come to the powers of their fathers,they will as guardians first begin to neglect us by having less consideration than is required,first ,for music, and second ,for gymnastic Shorey版:but still these, being unworthy, and having entered in turn into the powers of their fathers, will first as guardians begin to neglect us, paying too little heed to music(us的翻译同样有问题,算不上优秀翻译用 being unworthy,忽视了音乐教育这里翻译paying too little heed to music) 13 547c “把原先的朋友和供养人变成边民和奴隶”,这里的“奴隶”有待查证希腊文是否是在政治和经济双重意义上的奴隶,Shorey版提供的注疏 指的是An allusion to Sparta,也就是影射同时代斯巴达对其他雅典城邦的奴役,在海外殖民地掠夺奴隶。 顾寿观版:把那些原来是作为自由人而受他们保护的人,那些是他们的朋友和养育者的人,这时候,都转化为奴隶,当成是一个次等的种族,当成家奴,而他们自己则以进行战争和看护这些人为事。 Bloom版:they distributed land and houses to be held privately, while those who previously were guarded by them as free friends and supporters they then enslaved and held as serfs and domestics Shorey版:enslaving and subjecting as perioeci and serfs their former friends and supporters 14. 548c “他们由于轻视了真正的文艺女神,这些哲学和理论之友,由于重视了体育而放弃了音乐教育,因而受的不是说服教育而是强制教育。所以他们秘密地寻欢作乐,避开法律的监督,象孩子逃避父亲的监督一样”,这里的“真正的文艺女神”希腊文是单数,英文翻译也翻译为单数,有柏拉图的特定意思。希腊神话里面缪斯就是几个姐妹,并不存在哪个是真正的缪斯哪个是虚假的,所谓的“真正”更多是柏拉图所崇尚的说理和爱智慧部分,其他的比如音乐、历史等可能不如这个重要。 顾寿观版:他们隐蔽地,避开了别人的耳目去摘取安乐的果实,他们就像孩子逃避父亲的目光一样逃避礼法;他们并不是经由诱导和说服,而是经由外力的强制所教育出来的,因为他们忽略了那真正的文艺之神,后者是和说理和哲学相与为伍的 Bloom版:This is because they weren’t educated by persuasion but by force— the result of neglect of the true Muse accompanied by arguments and philosophy while giving more distinguished honor to gymnastic than music. (注意the true Muse) Shorey版:because of their appetites, enjoying their pleasures stealthily, and running away from the law as boys from a father, since they have not been educated by persuasion but by force because of their neglect of the true Muse, the companion of discussion and philosophy 15. 549c “譬如有个年轻人,他的父亲是善的……为了少惹麻烦他宁愿放弃一些自己的权利” ,这里有三处可能的问题,其一是“年轻人” 顾寿观本翻译为“小儿子”;其二是“宁愿放弃一些自己的权利”,这里的“权利”是现代的概念使用,柏拉图的政治哲学里面主要讨论“善”,并没有“权利”的字眼,对“正当”和“善”的区分可能也缺乏;其三是Bloom的译本在段末添加了一句 这个小儿子的好父亲是为了 追求更好的事情而逃避荣誉、权力等,但Shorey版并没有,待查证。 顾寿观版:他是一位品性高尚的父亲的小儿子,这个父亲住在一个治理不善的城邦里,他,逃避荣耀、官职、诉讼以及一切凡是属于这样一类出头露面的事,他处处自愿退步忍让,以求免于是非。 Bloom版:Sometimes he is the young son of a good father …… and who is willing to be gotten the better of so not to be bothered.(注意to be gotten the better of so) Shorey版:Sometimes he is the young son of a good father who lives in a badly governed state and avoids honors and office and law-suits and all such meddlesomeness and is willing to forbear something of his rights in order to escape trouble (”rights”存疑,state翻译也不确) 16. 549d “起初他听到他母亲埋怨说,他的父亲不当统治者,致使她再妇女群中也受到轻视……当她看到丈夫全神贯注于自己的心灵修养,对她也很淡漠,既无尊重也无不敬……他的父亲太缺乏男子气概,太懒散了。还有妇女们在这种场合惯常唠叨的许多别的怨言” 。 其一,“他的父亲不当统治者”,这里确切意思是 他的父亲并不是城邦统治者当中的一员,不是只有一个统治者。 其二,“当她看到丈夫全神贯注于自己的心灵修养”,待查证原文。 其三,“对她也很淡漠,既无尊重也无不敬”,这里漏译形容程度的副词——“完全”,Bloom英译本译作very much ,也就是那个父亲对他的妻子既没有完全的尊重也没有完全的不尊重。 其四,“他的父亲太缺乏男子气概,太懒散了”,“懒散”的翻译不确切,是过分随和的意思。另外,从义理方面“男子气概”这个词值得多讨论一下,商务版这里翻译准确,“男子气概”有一个演变历史。 其五,“惯常唠叨的许多别的怨言” 原文着重形容了“怨言”数量多、种类多,有没完没了的意思。 待讨论:“丈夫全神贯注于自己的心灵修养”的所指各个版本不一致,顾寿观本是“一心陷于沉思默想中”,靠近哲学的静观沉思生活状态,Bloom版turns his mind to himself 汉译模糊,Shorey用的self-absorbed in his thoughts也接近哲学沉思的意味,待查证希腊文原文。 顾寿观版:“首先,他听到他的母亲,怀着一腔委屈,抱怨说,她的男人不是担任什么职务的官场里的人,就是因为这一点,使她长长在众女人之间感到低人一等……她看到,他总是一心陷于沉思默想中,他对于她自己既不很看重,也不是不看重……他的那个父亲既不像是个男子汉,也太疲软没有气概了。以及其他凡是在这些事情上女人们喜欢唠叨着唱得那本经” Bloom版:in the first place ,he listens to his mother complaining. Her husband is not one of the rulers and as a result she is at a disadvantage among the other women……she becomes aware that he always turns his mind to himself,and neither honors nor dis honors her very much. She complains about all this and says that his father is lacking in courage and too slack ,and of course ,chants all the other refrains such as women are likely do in cases of this sort. Shorey版:he hears his mother complaining that her husband is not one of the rulers and for that reason she is slighted among the other women ……, and when she observes that he is self-absorbed in his thoughts and neither regards nor disregards her overmuch, and in consequence of all this laments and tells the boy that his father is too slack and no kind of a man, with all the other complaints 17. 549e “的确有许多这一类的怨言” ,这是阿德曼托斯对苏格拉底讲的比分的回复,跟原文有一段距离,疑似商务版从Shorey转译漏掉后半句“after their kind”。原文的阿德曼托斯是表达出一种对此类妇女的鄙夷,原话大意是说 这些妇女发出这样的唠叨和怨言实在符合她们一贯表现。 顾寿观版:”这些话多着哩,并且也都是和她们的天性相符的” Bloom版:it's just like them to have many complaints. Shorey版:“Many indeed,” said Adeimantus, “and after their kind.” 18. 549e “你知道这种人家有些仆人表面上很忠实,同样会背了主人向孩子讲这类话”,这里有两个细节问题要澄清,第一是“孩子”的单复数,原文是“孩子们” 也就是指的是好父亲的好多个孩子,而不是特指的那个大比方的小儿子;第二是“仆人”的“忠实”怎么理解,原商务版可能让人误以为 仆人有坏心装作忠实,而苏格拉底这里的意思是 仆人本身也觉得这样做(对孩子们进行各种唠叨、教导)也是好的,但实际上却不是,因为这些仆人处于无知当中,并不能识别或分辨那真正高贵和值得追求的事业,而只能将世俗的金银、荣耀作为最好的事物。 顾寿观版:“你知道,还有这些人的家奴们,看起来完全是出于好心,有时候也在私下里对这些人的儿子说些这样的话” (此版本的“儿子”的单复数不对,用的是单数“儿子”) Bloom版:"And you know," I said ,"that the domestics of such men-those domestics who seem well-disposed sometimes also secretly say similar things to the sons “ Shorey版: the very house-slaves of such men, if they are loyal and friendly, privately say the same sort of things to the sons (用了一个if ,不确定是否符合原意) 19. 550b,“另一方面听惯了父亲的话语,并近看过父亲的举止行为,发现与别人的所言所行,大相径庭。于是两种力量争夺青年犹如拔河一样,父亲灌输培育他心灵上的理性,别人的影响增强他的欲望和激情”,这里的“大相径庭”翻译不缺,商务版的中译添加了“犹如拔河一样”的比喻,柏拉图原文没有。“大相径庭”的对应原文意思为“就近地排列在他面前”,Bloom版翻译较为准确contrasted with those of the others。 待讨论问题:父亲给儿子的所谓“理性”到底是哪一种理性,是单纯带有褒义的理性么?在Bloom和Shorey里面的理性 一个用的calculating part 一个用的rational principle 很多时候我们都认为是是强调利害算计方面的推理功能,而不是reasonable ,这里待讨论。 顾寿观版:这时候,这个年轻人,听到看到所有这一切,并且又听到他的父亲的言论谈吐,他在近处观察他父亲的行为和操守,并拿它和他人的行为相比;他受着这两种势力的牵引,一方面是他的父亲,在灵魂中浇灌和培养着他的那个理性的部分,而另一方面,那些其他的人,则培育那欲望和意气的部分。 Bloom版:Now when the young man hears and sees all this ,and , on the other hand ,hears his father's arguments and sees his practices at close hand contrasted with those of the others, he is drawn by both of these influences. His father waters the calculating part of his soul ,and causes it to grow ;the others ,the desiring and spirited parts. Shorey版:Then it is that the youth, hearing and seeing such things, and on the other hand listening to the words of his father, and with a near view of his pursuits contrasted with those of other men, is solicited by both, his father watering and fostering the growth of the rational principle in his soul and the others the appetitive and the passionate “他成了一个傲慢的喜爱荣誉的人” ,“傲慢的”希腊文原文是“精神高昂的”,但似乎各个译本都将其引申为“傲慢的”,王扬的《理想国》译本将其翻译为本意。 顾寿观版:并从而成了一个态度傲慢、嗜爱荣誉的人 Bloom版:he becomes a haughty-minded man who loves honor. Shorey版:he comes to a compromise and turns over the government in his soul to the intermediate principle of ambition and high sprit and becomes a man haughty of soul and covetous of honor 20. 550c,"我们要不要接下去象埃斯库罗斯所说的那样,谈论与另一种国家对应的另一种人呢?",这里其实原文引用的时埃斯库罗斯的诗句,希腊文原文是λέγ᾽ ἄλλον ἄλλαις ἐν πύλαις εἰληχότα. 埃斯库罗斯的这句诗的意思是 “不同的人适合不同的城邦”,摘自 埃斯库罗斯《七》(《七雄围攻忒拜》) Bloom版:Then next, shall we ,with Aeschylus ,tell of ‘another man set against another city’,or rather …… Shorey版:Shall we then, as Aeschylus: would say, “‘tell of another champion before another gate,’” 21. 551b “而这项法律的通过则是他们用武力来实现的,或者用恐吓以建立起自己的政府后实现的” ,原文“这项法律”苏格拉底用的词是“这套东西”,语气当中带有鄙夷和批评语气。 顾寿观版:并且这一点是用刀枪斧钺的武力来强制执行的,如果不是在此之前他们通过声势和恫吓已经建立起了这种政体的话? Bloom版:don't they either put this into effect by force of arms or ,before it comes to that ,they arouse fear and so establish this regime? Or isn't it that way? Shorey版:And this law they either put through by force of arms, or without resorting to that they establish their government by terrorization 22. 553c"我的朋友,这个儿子目击了这一切,经受了这一切,又丧失了家产,我想他会变得胆小,他灵魂里的荣誉心和好胜心会立即动摇,他会因羞于贫穷而转向挣钱,贪婪地,吝啬地,节省苦干以敛聚财富。你不认为这种人这时会把欲望和爱财原则奉为神圣,尊为心中的帝王,饰之以黄金冠冕,佩之以波斯宝刀吗" 一者是商务版“我想他会变得胆小”,原文是说他因为家庭变故和家产丧失而产生了恐惧之心,被弄怕了。 二者是“尊为心中的帝王,饰之以黄金冠冕,佩之以波斯宝刀吗”,此处翻译地很文学化,对原文做了一些改动。原文的“黄金冠冕”只是伊斯兰教的头巾,并不涉及王冠之类。 三者是商务版漏译了苏格拉底形象的比喻,把“欲望和爱财”奉为神圣原文是特别说将其放到宝座上,Bloom翻译用 put … on the throne ,Shorey用establish on that throne 。 四者是漏译了一个“项链”,英文版也都漏译。 顾寿观版:而他,亲爱的朋友,看到这一切并且感到痛苦,失掉了他的财产,产生了恐惧……把它奉为他灵魂里的东方大君,为它带上王冕,披上金甲,腰间挂着弯弯的腰刀?(第三点同样未翻译出来,王冕也不确) Bloom版:And the son ,my friend ,seeing and suffering this and having lost his substance, is frightened , I suppose, ……Don’t you suppose that such a man now puts the desiring and money-loving part on the throne, and makes it the great king within himself ,girding it with tiaras ,collars ,and Persian swords? Shorey版:Do you not suppose that such a one will then establish on that throne the principle of appetite and avarice, and set it up as the great king in his soul, adorned with tiaras and collars of gold, and girt with the Persian sword?” (黄金的是collars 而非王冠 ) 23. 553d “在这原则统治下,我认为理性和激情将被迫折节为奴。理性只被允许计算和研究如何更多地赚钱,激情也只被允许崇尚和赞美财富和富人,只以致富和致富之道为荣耀",这里存在漏译,原文的一些细节意思也因为被简化而难以读出,顾寿观版的翻译相对冗长。 “在这原则统治下”,中译本添加,原文没有,这个部分商务版没有标示出一句插入语,“我想”,被强行并到了一起。Bloom和顾寿观译本都有标示。 “理性和激情将被迫折节为奴”是意译,原文有更丰富的细节,这些细节有助于我们体会柏拉图用灵魂三分的理论框架来剖析政治问题,而在本书第九卷柏拉图同样在此框架下做工作。这里的原文意思是 理性和血气部分本来应该是高于欲望部分,但却被分别放置在低于欲望部分两边的地上,(好像左右仆人那样)而成为了欲望的奴隶。 “理性只被允许计算和研究如何更多地赚钱”的意思是 理性部分reasonable 退化为只计算功利的部分,只有rational的功能。 “激情”也只被允许崇尚和赞美财富和富人,只以致富和致富之道为荣耀” 指的是其血气也不再,被财富所限定,整个人的视域被大大遮蔽的意思。 顾寿观版:“而”,我想,“他的那个思维理性的部分和他的那个意气高昂的部分,他把它们一边一个分别放置于欲望部分之下的地面上,他使它们沉沦到奴仆的地位,前者他不让它思索,也不让它考察任何得以使较少的财富变成为更大的财富以外的任何其他事物,而后者也不得欣慕和 推崇除了富有和富有的人之外的任何事物,也不得,在敛财致富和其他凡是能导致同一目标的事物之外,再对任何其他事物产生荣誉和渴求的心。” Bloom版:And ,I suppose ,he makes he calculating and spirited parts sit by it on the ground on either side and be slaves,letting the one neither calculate about nor consider anything but where more money will come from less; and letting the other admire and honor nothing but wealth and the wealthy ,while loving the enjoyment of no other honor than that resulting from the possession of money and anything that happens to contribute to getting it. Shorey版:And under this domination he will force the rational and high-spirited principles to crouch lowly to right and left as slaves, and will allow the one to calculate and consider nothing but the ways of making more money from a little, and the other to admire and honor nothing but riches and rich men, and to take pride in nothing but the possession of wealth and whatever contributes to that? (理性部分用rational翻译并不适合) 24. 554b "我想他没有注意过;否则他断不会选一个盲人做剧中的主角,让他得到最大荣誉的", 这里的“盲人”和“剧中的主角”需要解释。“盲人” 这里还涉及到古希腊的财神,阿里斯托芬有部谐剧名作《财神》,财神就是一位盲人。“剧中的主角” 翻译不确,主角对应原文是歌队的领队人,在古希腊的戏剧表演分台上和台下两部分,台下的歌队需要一个领队人协调指挥,因此需要有基本的视力,所以此处用盲人做歌队指挥 显得很滑稽 。 顾寿观版:否则,他就不会排一个瞎子作他的乐队的领唱并且奉之为神了(奉之为神 不确切,原文是给与最大荣耀,没有神的字眼) Bloom版:Otherwise he wouldn't have set a blind leader over the chorus and honored it above all. Shorey版:else he would not have made the blind one leader of his choir and first in honor. 25. 555d "我想,他们有的负债累累,有的失去了公民资格,有的两者兼有,他们武装了,象有刺的雄蜂,同吞并了他们产业的以及其他的富而贵者住在一个城里,互相仇恨,互相妒忌,他们急切地希望革命" ,这里存有漏译,他们空坐城中 的意思给省去了。最后的“急切希望革命” 的“革命”在中国的红色传统下 更多是褒义词,这里是贬义,翻译为“变天”比较好。 公民资格根据Ferrari译注,被剥夺公民权的人不仅仅是丧失了投票权,他还被禁止担任任何公共职务,不能充当诉讼人,甚至被禁止在某些重要的公告场所露面。 顾寿观版:“这些人,” 我想,“滞留在城邦里,长着毒刺,带着全副武装,有的是欠着债务,有的是被剥夺了公民权,更有的是两者兼而有之,他们仇恨和窥测着那些去了他们的财产的人和其他公民们,渴望着革命和改朝换代” Bloom版:Then I suppose these men sit idly in the city ,fitted out with things and fully armed ,some owing debts ,some dishonored ,and some both,hating and plotting against those who acquired what belongs to them and all the rest too,gripped by a love of change. Shorey版:And there they sit, I fancy, within the city, furnished with stings, that is, arms, some burdened with debt, others disfranchised, others both, hating and conspiring against the acquirers of their estates and the rest of the citizens,and eager for revolution (空坐在城中没有翻译出“sit”,revolution不确切) 26. 557a “这是民主制度,无论是通过武装斗争,或是通过恐吓手段建立起来的,最后结果反正都一样,反对党被迫退出” ,翻译语序颠倒,导致阿德曼托斯的谈话重点被掩盖,疑似从Shorey版转译。原句子强调的是“ 这……就是民主制度的实现过程”,具体的实现可能有两种一种实现是通过直接的武装斗争,一种是因为恐怖的气氛一部分人自己离开了城邦。 顾寿观版:“是,正是这样,” 他说,“这就是民主政体的产生,不论有时候是真实地动用兵刀武器的,还是有时候是出于恐怖,一方面的人悄悄地退去了” Bloom版:this is establishment of democracy ,whether it comes into being by arms or by the others' withdrawing due to the fear. Shorey版:that is the constitution of democracy alike whether it is established by force of arms or by terrorism resulting in the withdrawal of one of the parties 27. 558a"你一定看到过,在这种国家里,那些被判了死罪的或要流放国外的,竟好象没事人一样,照旧在人民中间来来往往,也竟好象来去无踪的精灵似的没人注意他们。" 这里需要说明的是两个,一个是 “被判了死罪的或要流放国外的”量词,原文是属格,因此不是全称量词修饰,苏格拉底并不是说所有的,指的是一部分。第二个是 “精灵似的”翻译不当,原意是像得胜归来的英雄那般,顾寿观版同样未翻译出来 那部分人不以为耻,没有任何沮丧、后悔,反而趾高气昂的丑态。第三个是商务版将苏格拉底原来的反问句改成了陈述语气。 顾寿观版:也许你在这样的政体下从未见到过,人们被公众投票判处了死刑或是流放,他们依然在公众中居留和四处来往,就像是,既没有一个人去注意,也没有一个人看见,就像是一个幽灵一样进进出出?("幽灵"的形容不准确) Bloom版:Or in such a regime haven't you yet seen men who have been sentenced to death or exile ,nonetheless staying and carrying on right in the middle of things ;and ,as though no one cared or saw ,stalking the land like a hero ?(stalking the land like a hero 翻译准确) Shorey版:Or have you never seen in such a state men condemned to death or exile who none the less stay on, and go to and fro among the people, and as if no one saw or heeded him, the man slips in and out like a revenant (revenant 归来者) 28. 559e"我们年轻人也同样,当他心灵里的这种或那种欲望在得到外来的同类或类似的欲望支持时,便发生心灵的变革。我们这样说对吗" ,起初Bloom的英译本有without的翻译不太明白怎么回事,可能Bloom这里用的是 反问句,句式是 “难道你认为 没有xxx的帮助 是能够xxx么?” 顾寿观版:那么,是不是,就像那个城邦,当有同盟势力从外部来帮助了在它之中相类的一个部分时,它就起变化了,同样,那年轻人,当在他之中的一类欲望,有一类属于同一类属的、相类的欲望从外部来支撑时,他也就发生变化了? Bloom版:Then ,just as the city was transformed when an alliance from outside brought aid to one party ,like to like ,is the young man also transformed in the same way when desires of a kindred and like form from without bring aid to one party of desires within him? Shorey版:May we not say that just as the revolution in the city was brought about by the aid of an alliance from outside, coming to the support of the similar and corresponding party in the state, so the youth is revolutionized when a like and kindred group of appetites from outside comes to the aid of one of the parties in his soul? 29. 560b "终于它们把这年轻人的心灵堡垒占领了,发觉里面空无所有,没有理想,没有学问,没有事业心,——这些乃是神所友爱者心灵的最好守卫者和保护者" ,有两个细节需要补充解释,“没有学问” 原意是指的那些符合逻各斯、站得住脚的言辞,Bloom翻译为true speeches ,第二点是“神”的翻译,原文是复数形式,指诸神,汉译“神”比较模糊。 “终于”这里使用的是“将来不定时”,把一件将来发生的事情当做一件实际已经发生了事来描写。 “心灵堡垒”这里苏格拉底的修辞显然是有拿雅典卫城“阿克罗波利斯”作比喻,雅典卫城在地理位置上居于高处,是雅典城邦最崇高、最神圣的象征,这种比喻其实表达了柏拉图对人的灵魂理性部分的尊崇。 顾寿观版:“而最后,我想,这些欲望就终于攻克了这个年轻人灵魂中的那一座卫城,因为他们看到,这个卫城是空空的,其中既无学问,也无高尚的工作和事业,也无真实的议论,而后者,在所有被神所钟爱的人的思想中,是最好的守护和保卫者” (“神”单复数不明) Bloom版:And finally ,I suppose they took the acropolis of the young man's soul,perceiving that it was empty of fair studies and practices and true speeches ,and it's these that are the best watchmen and guardians in the thought of men whom the gods love. (Bloom用了强调句式,突出“最好的看门人和护卫者”) Shorey版:And in the end, I suppose, they seize the citadel of the young man's soul, finding it empty and unoccupied by studies and honorable pursuits and true discourses, which are the best watchmen and guardians in the minds of men who are dear to the gods (神 对应“gods”,指诸神,准确) 相近的部分还有一个问题,这个段落后 阿得曼托斯有一句回应,商务版“是最可靠的守卫者”,翻看大部分译本都是相似,而Bloom版是“They are by far the best”添加了一个 by far ,意思是 到目前为止最可靠的守卫者,待查证希腊文。 如果是by far 的话,是不是暗示阿德曼托斯可能会认为讨论后面的僭主制中还有更好的守卫者? 30. 560c”他们也不让他倾听良师益友的忠告。他们会在他的内心冲突中取得胜利,把行己有耻说成是笨蛋傻瓜,驱逐出去”,这里的“良师益友”的翻译模糊了原意。柏拉图本意是 几个单身而来的高龄老人,按照当时的外交传统其实是充满睿智、人生经验丰富的使节团。商务版的这种翻译疑似从Shorey版转译,而更加简略其意。 顾寿观版:并且也拒绝接受那些出自以普通平民身份出现的年长者之后的,起着使节作用的,有益的话语和见解。 Bloom版:they neither admit the auxiliary force itself nor do they receive an embassy of speeches of older private men ,but doing battle they hold sway themselves. Shorey版:refuse admission to the auxiliary force itself, and will not grant audience as to envoys to the words of older friends in private life. And they themselves prevail in the conflict, and naming reverence and awe ‘folly’1 thrust it forth, a dishonored fugitive. ( older friends 翻译不详尽忠实原文) 31. 561c”事实上他一天又一天地沉迷于轮到的快乐之中。今天是饮酒、女人、歌唱,明天又喝清水,进严格规定的饮食;第一天是剧烈的体育锻炼,第二天又是游手好闲,懒惰玩忽;然后一段时间里,又研究起哲学。他常常想搞政治,经常心血来潮,想起什么就跳起来干什么说什么……他自以为他的生活方式是快乐的、自由的、幸福的,并且要把它坚持到底” ,整个这一段商务部翻译的比较乱,很多部分都距离原意比较远,王扬在《汉译<理想国>辨正》有精确的说明。 “饮酒”,原意为“喝的大醉”,“女人”是中译者自行添加,柏拉图未提及性方面的纵欲,如果提及也不一定是女人。“喝清水,进严格规定的饮食”,原文是“故意让自己消瘦” “游手好闲,懒惰玩忽”偏离更远,王扬纠正为“有时他懒得不愿动一下身子,对任何事情都漠不关心” 。“常常想搞政治”,并不是“想”在柏拉图预期的民主城邦青年实际就是经常参与城邦公共事务,但是柏拉图批判的在于青年人没有经验,失之冲动,缺乏一个恒常的善的指引导致政治行动很轻率冒失。“并且要把它坚持到底”,是“声称要将其坚持到底”,强调青年人这个自以为是的骄傲和无知之态。 Bloom版:“Then,” I said,”he also lives along day by day ,gratifying the desire that occurs to him, at one time drinking and listening to the flute, at another downing water and reducing; now processing gymnastic ,and again idling and neglecting everything; and sometimes spending his time as though he were occupied with philosophy” Shorey版:day by day indulging the appetite of the day, now wine-bibbing and abandoning himself to the lascivious pleasing of the flute and again drinking only water and dieting;and at one time exercising his body, and sometimes idling and neglecting all things, and at another time seeming to occupy himself with philosophy 32. 562a "现在只剩下一种最美好的政治制度和最美好的人物需要我们加以描述的了,这就是僭主政治与僭主了" ,"最美好" 至少需要理解为反讽,实际上苏格拉底将僭主政治认为是城邦最大的弊病,僭主样子的个人出于灵魂最大的混乱无序当中,王扬建议将其翻译为“最漂亮”。 Bloom版:“Then,” I said ,"the fairest regime and the fairest man would be left us to go through,tyranny and the tyrant” Shorey版:“And now,” said I, “the fairest polity and the fairest man remain for us to describe, the tyranny and the tyrant.” (Shorey将fairest解释为反讽) 33. 563c “那么,我们要不要“畅所欲言”,有如埃斯库罗斯所说的呢”,商务版的翻译有个问题,阿德曼托斯 这里到底是询问苏格拉底要不要随心所欲说任何话,还是阿德曼托斯就认为这样做没什么大不了,不需要询问苏格拉底? 商务版和Bloom的语气一致,问询语气。 埃斯库罗斯的那句诗歌,商务版译作“畅所欲言”不是很准确,直译是话到了嘴边就说的意思。 顾寿观版:“那就”,他说,“按阿埃斯居洛的说法,’到了嘴边的话就让我们说吧’”(语气有问题,待查证) Bloom版:“Won't we ,” he said ,"with Aeschylus ,''say whatever just came to our lips “ Shorey版:“in Aeschylean phrase,say “whatever rises to our lips’?” 34. 562c “我想,一个民主的城邦由于渴望自由,有可能让一些坏分子当上了领导人,受到他们的欺骗,喝了太多的醇酒,烂醉如泥。而如果正派的领导人想要稍加约束,不是过分放任纵容,这个社会就要起来指控他们,叫他们寡头分子,要求惩办他们” 其一,“受到他们的欺骗” 为中译者自加。 其二,“一些坏分子”和“正派领导人”原文指的是同一批人,直译指的是斟酒者,跟会饮场合相关。王扬解释的这同一批人指的是一味迁就民众的愿望、不懂领导艺术、不能掌握好分寸的统治者。 其三,“喝了太多的醇酒,烂醉如泥 ”需要解释下,结合原文意思是城邦陶醉于超过适当程度的自由当中。这里柏拉图批评的是民主政体可能会允诺给过度的自由。 顾寿观版:当一个在民主政体统治下的城邦,在它渴求自由时,它遇到了一些很坏的、站在前列作为领队的筵席传酒人,并且被过量地用这种浓烈的酒汁灌醉了,而如果它的所谓官长统治者不是那么一种对它十分和顺的人而且不向它慷慨地提供自由,那它就重重地惩罚他们,怪罪他们说,他们是可诅咒的人,是一些寡头政体者。 Bloom版:I suppose that when a democratic city ,once it’s thirsted for freedom , gets bad wine bearers as its leaders and gets more drunk than it should on this unmixed draught ,then ,unless the rulers are very gentle and provide a great deal of freedom ,it punishes them,charging them with being polluted and oligarchs. Shorey版:Why, when a democratic city athirst for liberty gets bad cupbearers for its leaders and is intoxicated by drinking too deep of that unmixed wine ,and then if its so-called governors are not extremely mild and gentle with it and do not dispense the liberty unstintedly ,it chastises them and accuses them of being accursed oligarchs. 35. 563d “你告诉我的,我早知道。我在城外常常碰到这种事” ,阿德曼托斯的这个回应似乎比较自以为是(待查证希腊文原文),一个是“城外”的意义不缺。 阿的本意是我从市区到城外的路上经常碰到这种事,这里“经常”需要强调,Jowwett的译本未能强调,Adam对此有比较准确的注疏。 顾寿观版:“是,” 他说,“你说了我亲身的经验;因为当我往乡下去的时候经常遇到这种事情” Bloom版:"You're telling me my own dream," he said "I, myself ,repeatedly suffer that very thing when journeying to the country" (不清楚Bloom用 my own dream 怎么解释?) Shorey版:“It is my own dream you are telling me,” he said; “for it often happens to me when I go to the country.”(happens to me没有对频率的强调) 36. 565d”一个保护人变成僭主,其关键何在呢?——当他的所作所为变得象我们听说过的那个关于阿卡狄亚的吕克亚宙斯圣地的故事时,这个关键不就清楚了吗" ,“保护人”的翻译不确切,疑似从Shorey版转移,希腊文的本意是 走在前面的人,或领导者。 顾寿观版:那么,从一个保护者转变为一个僭主,这个转变是怎样开始的呢?还是很明显,这是当那个保护者开始去做了和那个神话传说里的事情相同的事情的时候,后者是人们关于那个在阿卡迪亚地方,属于吕卡奥的宙斯神庙的神话? Bloom版:What is the beginning of the transformation from leader to tyrant?Or is it plainly when the leader begins to act out the tale that is told in connection with the temple of Lycaean Zeus in Arcadia? Shorey版:What, then, is the starting-point of the transformation of a protector into a tyrant? Is it not obviously when the protector's acts begin to reproduce the legend that is told of the shrine of Lycaean Zeus in Arcadia(protector翻译不确切) 37. 565e”一个人如果尝了那怕一小块混和在其它祭品中的人肉时”,王扬提及原文没有“一小块”的量词,根据上下文意思译者添加。“人肉”的翻译不准确,原文是指“人的内脏”,Bloom用human inwards ,Shorey用的human entrails。 顾寿观版:这是说:谁要尝吃了人的内脏,被切碎了和其他祭祀牺牲的内脏混在一起的,那人就必定要变成一头狼。难道你没有听过这个传说么?(量词和内脏的翻译都准确) Bloom版:That the man who tastes of the single morsel of human inwards cut up with those of other sacrificial victims must necessarily become a wolf.(human inwards 指内脏) Shorey版:The story goes that he who tastes of the one bit of human entrails minced up with those of other victims is inevitably transformed into a wolf. Have you not heard the tale? (human entrails 内脏,准确) 38. 565e”他控制着轻信的民众,不可抑制地要使人流血;他诬告别人,使人法庭受审,谋害人命,罪恶地舔尝同胞的血液;或将人流放域外,或判人死刑;或取消债款,或分人土地。最后,这种人或自己被敌人杀掉,或由人变成了豺狼,成了一个僭主" ,原文本是连贯的几个问句,有接连发问的气势,而商务部的翻译将文意打碎,一方面将反问语气转换为陈述,一方面又频繁转换主语,导致意思凌乱,让读者难以抓住苏格拉底讲话的重点。参考Bloom英译本翻译的比较好。 其一,漏译一句插入语“如同他们经常做的那样”,“他们”指的是“诸如此类的领袖”,像他一样的僭主们。 其二,“不可抑制地要使人流血”需解释,原文是“他并不力图让自己与同族人的血液保持距离……” 也就是他并不致力于阻止同族同邦人陷入内讧。 顾寿观版:那么是不是同样,凡是身为“人民”领袖的人,拥有大量拥护他的群众,如果不戒避同族人的血,而是相反,进行不公正的指控毁谤,就像这是他们的惯伎那样,把一个公民带到法庭上去进行污浊的谋害, Bloom版:Isn’t it also the same for the leader of a people who ,taking over a particularly obedient mob ,does not hold back from shedding the blood of his tribe but unjustly brings charges against a man— which is exactly what they usually do—and, bringing him before the court, murders him ,and ,doing away with a man’s life ,tastes of kindred blood with unholy tongue and mouth ,and banishes ,and kills ,and hints at cancellations of debts and redistributions of land; isn’t it also necessarily fated ,I say ,that after this such a man either be slain by his enemies or be tyrant and turn from a human being into a wolf? Shorey版:And is it not true that in like manner a leader of the people who, getting control of a docile mob,does not withhold his hand from the shedding of tribal blood, but by the customary unjust accusations brings a citizen into court and assassinates him, blotting out a human life, and with unhallowed tongue and lips that have tasted kindred blood, banishes and slays and hints at the abolition of debts and the partition of lands—is it not the inevitable consequence and a decree of fate that such a one be either slain by his enemies or become a tyrant and be transformed from a man into a wolf?” 39. 566d “那位保护者不是被打倒在地’张大的肢体’,而是他打倒了许多反对者,攫取了国家的最高权力,由一个保护者变成了一个十足的僭主独裁者”,商务版这里的翻译没有将柏拉图化用荷马史诗的味道显现出来,在《伊利亚特》当中特洛伊王子赫克托耳有个很勇猛的驾车手,对他的战死荷马给了一句赞词“躺着,伟人以伟大的形式,从此忘却了驾驭”。 “僭主独裁者”翻译为“僭主”比较确切,王扬在《辨正》中解释道从历史的角度来看 ,僭主是依靠民众的力量夺得政权、自立为王、实行专制的人,是古希腊推翻贵族统治运动的一个重要历史现象;它跟现代人说的“独裁者”概念有很大区别。 顾寿观版:而那个人民领袖本人,很明显,他是不会,’伟大堂皇地四脚朝天’躺倒在那里的,相反,他把很多人打翻下去之后,就高站在城邦这架战车上,现在,他不再是领袖,而是一个十足地道的僭主了。 Bloom版:And surely it’s plain that this leader himself doesn’t lie ‘great in his greatness ’ on the ground , but ,having cast down many others ,stands in the chariot of the city ,now a perfected tyrant instead of a leader. Shorey版:And then obviously that protector does not lie prostrate, “‘mighty with far-flung limbs,’” but overthrowing many others towers in the car of state transformed from a protector into a perfect and finished tyrant

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